You're right, as a rule. But from time to time we would be discussing
feelings with a client, and she might say something like, "It was the
hardest thing I ever did, but God told me to, so I did it." From that
I would deduce that she(and it was always a woman)did not like the
order, but I never heard anyone say, "God told me, and I said No!"
It's tough having only one God. Especially one who is never wrong.
The andient Greeks and Romans had a much more fun time, since they had
a god for any occasion. Of course this one God world we now live in
isn't really one God. There is the Evil One who, if not a God most
certainly has greater powers than any Human. And I thought I had a
struggle resisting cigarettes.
Carl Jarvis
On 6/19/21, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Consider this, Carl. Have you ever noticed that when someone tells you
what god wants it always agrees with what the person telling you wants?
How often do you ever hear someone say, I don't like this a bit, but
this is what god wants? Or, I really wish god would want something else,
but here is what god wants?
___
Irvin D. Yalom “Truth," Nietzsche continued, "is arrived at through
disbelief and skepticism, not through a childlike wishing something were
so! Your patient's wish to be in God's hands is not truth. It is simply
a child's wish—and nothing more! It is a wish not to die, a wish for the
eveastingly bloated nipple we have labeled 'God'! Evolutionary theory
scientifically demonstrates God's redundancy—though Darwin himself had
not the courage to follow his evidence to its true conclusion. Surely,
you must realize that we created God, and that all of us together now
have killed him.” ― Irvin D. Yalom, When Nietzsche Wept
On 6/19/2021 11:12 AM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
So the actual issue is how to present a united position on an issue
that defies a united solution.
Here is the basic problem confronting the Catholic Church. Mortals
attempting to read the mind of God, while avoiding the question as to
whether God exists. And beyond that is the problem of how to pacify
all Church Members into believing that the words of these Mortal Men
are actually coming from the lips of God.
That reminds me, did they ever solve the question of how many Angels
can dance on the head of a pin?
Carl Jarvis
On 6/18/21, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Catholic bishops vote on controversial Communion document
Image without a caption
Los Angeles Archbishop José Gomez, president of the U.S. Conference of
Catholic Bishops, confers with staff during a virtual assembly on
Wednesday.
(U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops/AP)
By
Michelle Boorstein
June 18, 2021 at 1:26 p.m. EDT
Catholic bishops on Friday voted to create guidelines on the meaning of
Communion, a move that could be an early step toward limiting the
serving
of
the Eucharist to President Biden and other politicians who support
abortion
rights.
The vote came after a 3½-hour-long emotional discussion Thursday at the
annual spring meeting of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.
Multiple
bishops clashed over how, or if, they should single out the church’s
teaching on abortion.
The vote on whether to create a draft document about the meaning of the
Eucharist, the bread-and-wine rite at the heart of Communion, needed a
simple majority. The measure passed 168 to 55, with six abstentions.
Biden’s presidency, the second Catholic to hold the position in the
nation’s
history, is revealing deep divisions among U.S. bishops, and one after
another appeared Thursday at their annual meeting to declare their
fraternity is at a crossroads..
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Embedded in the organization’s agenda this week were explosive, profound
differences about theology, pastoring, human nature and a political
backdrop
that set off a rare public show of division among the bishops . One
bishop
said the men were meeting at a time of “historic opportunity.” Another
said
he could not recall a moment like this in 30 years. Yet another said the
bishops’ discussion was the most robust discussion in a decade.
The pandemic devastated an immigrant community. Its first Latino priest
is
spreading hope.
Each side said the other was jeopardizing the church’s reputation.
Normally,
the men meet for three days each June in a huge Baltimore ballroom, but
this
year (like last year) they were spread across the country, addressing
one
another virtually.
“Our credibility is on the line. … The eyes of the whole country are on
us.
If we don’t act courageously, clearly and convincingly on this core
Catholic
value, how can we expect to be taken seriously on another matter?” asked
San
Francisco Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone. He was among the members who
urged the creation of the document, an idea that grew from Biden’s
election
in November and concern about the image of him receiving Communion at
Mass
each week.
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But San Diego Archbishop Robert McElroy said the threat was the vote —
which
would link a politician, their policy position and the Eucharist,
considered
the heart of Catholic worship.
“The Eucharist itself will be a tool in vicious partisan turmoil. It
will
be
impossible to prevent its weaponization, even if everyone wants to do
so,”
he said. “Once we legitimize public-policy-based exclusion … we’ll
invite
all political animosity into the heart of the Eucharistic celebration.”
A document that so elevates the sinfulness of an abortion policy — not a
personal viewpoint, as Biden says he personally accepts the church’s
teaching on the topic — McElroy argued, would fatally undermine the
bishops’
ability to speak on other things, “including the condemnation of
poverty,
racism and environmental destruction.”
Catholic bishops this week will discuss if Biden qualifies for
Communion.
It’s the culmination of decades of abortion politics.
The bishops spoke emotionally about their desire to be unified, and how
much
they all treasure the Eucharist, which Catholicism teaches brings God to
worshipers who have prepared by examining their sins, confessing
periodically and fasting. Yet their appearances raised starkly different
perspectives. Does a good Catholic priest focus on sin and repentance or
first inclusion? Elevate abortion above everything else or not? Is it a
priest’s job to assess policy solutions to a sin or stick to teaching
theology?
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The bishops have talked for several years about reviving interest in the
sacrament of the Eucharist. But when Biden was elected last fall, the
USCCB
created a working group to deal with what its president, Los Angeles
Archbishop José Gomez, said was the “problem” of Biden and his policies
on
abortion and LGBTQ protections. That working group recommended that the
conference produce a document on “Eucharistic consistency.” Some bishops
immediately expressed concerns about the aims of such a group; others
celebrated it.
Biden, while he attends Mass weekly, has not spoken much since taking
office
about his faith and how it impacts his policy views, including on
abortion.
The White House did not respond to requests for comment.
The prospect of creating a document on the “meaning” of the Eucharist
has
kept the issue simmering.
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“I think it’s the time to clarify, to speak the truth — and why? Because
we
are shepherds and teachers, and I believe if we don’t do it, we have
failed.
We don’t want to issue a document entitled, ‘We agree to disagree.’ Our
integrity is at stake,” said Bishop Thomas Daly of Spokane, Wash.
Kathleen Cummings, a historian at the University of Notre Dame who runs
the
school’s Cushwa Center for the Study of American Catholicism, said the
U.S.
Catholic Church for many decades was defined more by questions of how
and
whether Catholicism — then mostly a faith of immigrants — could fit into
America. Questions of being outsiders united them more, she said.
But in recent decades, with the complete integration and rising power of
Catholics in America, along with the sexual revolution, the divisions
became
more internal. And they have been building.
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“ ’Us against them’ — it worked for unity. Now, it’s us against us,” she
said.
Biden could redefine what it means to be a Catholic in good standing.
Catholics are divided on whether that is a good thing.
In addition to disagreement about issues, another sentiment was on
display
Thursday: distrust.
The bishops who want to create the document offered conflicting answers
on
whether its purpose was to primarily restate church teachings on the
Eucharist, and thus reinvite people back to its beauty, or whether it
might
focus on Catholic politicians or abortion.
Bishops who opposed creating the document cited past statements Thursday
showing that some appeared to want something akin to a national policy
on
more definitive norms about who is excluded from Communion.
“I see a discrepancy, in what it is intended to do, and repeated
interventions that it’s about a Catholic president,” said Bishop John
Stowe
of Lexington, Ky.
But the bishops who wanted the document, including the head of the
doctrine
committee, said they had let go of the idea of something like a policy.
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Catholic law gives the power to decide such things to each bishop. The
USCCB
is more of an industry group and doesn’t have the authority to mandate
or
even teach without two-thirds agreement and approval from the Vatican,
said
Nicholas Cafardi, a prominent canon lawyer and former dean of Duquesne
University.
“The bishops have a right to promote Catholic morals, but what they
don’t
have a right to do is to tell politicians which laws are necessary to
enforce those morals,” he said. “They’ve left the grounds of: ‘What’s
the
best way to handle the problem?’ They say the only way to fight this is
to
make abortion unavailable. You just changed gears.”
Cafardi added: “I think our president is pro-life because he favors laws
that will make abortion much less likely, and they miss the
sophistication
of that.”
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Cardinal Wilton Gregory, who leads Washington, D.C.’s archdiocese and
has
stated that his priests would not deny Communion to Biden, said a
document
on such a sensitive topic needed more time and discussion.
“The choice before us at this moment is either we pursue a path of
strengthening unity or settle for a document that will not bring unity
but
will very well further damage it,” he said.
This is a developing story. It will be updated.