Carl, heck it is just email; nothing more than a bucket of bits. If anyone is
so troubled that an email is going to take away their faith or make them
convert to (insert religion of choice here) then their faith isn’t too strong
to begin with.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Wednesday, August 2, 2017 2:37 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Abby Vincent <aevincent@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: (no subject)
Discussing personal beliefs without becoming personally involved is tough to
do.
Still, I think most on this list are better at it than when I first joined. Or
maybe it's me who has learned to accept criticism about my Beliefs without
taking personal affront. And yet, it does seem that we all are better at it.
Each of us are a composite of everything that happened since the day we were
conceived. Any criticism of any piece of that composite can be seen as a
personal attack, or it can be taken as an opportunity to open a discussion.
How we approach criticism determines whether it becomes a learning experience
or a pissing match. Of course we can be shouted down with profane curses, but
rather than become offended or angered to the point of returning the curses in
triplicate, good judgement should tell us to simply end the contact.
Furthermore, telling me that I am stupid for believing the lies that humans are
causing climate change, is not an approach that will sway my opinion. Do I
really care whether some nameless email calls me stupid? There's nothing to be
learned or discussed here. I'll simply delete you and go forward believing my
more learned sources of information. If I am wrong, the planet will continue
as it is. But if I'm right, and we are contaminating Earth beyond its ability
to cleanse itself, then you will be destroyed along with all of us, and your
name calling will not save one single hair on your head.
But I digress.
We can explore ideas and learn from what others believe. Mostafa has given me
much information, mostly about the sort of person he is, but also regarding his
Faith. Of course, as an Agnostic, I can't really enter into conversation
regarding religion, but I certainly can learn.
As a believer that we humans "created" all our multitude of Gods, I would be
disingenuous if I debated with Mostafa.
But I do believe it is fair to tell him why I cannot ever embrace his "true"
faith. And I think that mostly, I have done this without putting him down.
I do wonder if Humans can avoid extinction while believing that Our
God...whichever one we believe in, has absolute truth on his side, making all
other beliefs evil.
In my simple minded way, I truly believe that, "United we Stand:
Divided we fall". We are divided into little nations, each one better than all
others; little religions, each one better than all others; little racial
groups, each one better than all others. And on and on and on. After
thousands of years of this sort of nonsense, how can we rise to a higher level,
find the similarities and teaching Peace and Respect instead of anger and
hatred and violence?
Our very existence depends upon our finding a way through to the other side.
Carl Jarvis
On 8/1/17, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Ah but Abby, I am an atheist and religion is a part of my life. I
would rather it not be, but theists have been beating me over the head
with it all of my life. I have been screamed at on the street for
going blind because I turned my back on Jesus. I have been followed
around and preached at even though I politely told the harasser that I
was not interested. For the most part these jerks have been Christian.
In fact, I can say that in person no Muslim has ever tried to beat me
over the head with his religion. But then, I have not known or
encountered very many Muslims and of the few I have encountered I have
been able to actually discuss their religion with them without their
becoming hysterical like so many Christians have. On line, though, it
is a bit different. A few years ago I was browsing Yahoo groups and
came across an announce only group about the Quran. I was a bit
curious and subscribed. It consisted of a daily quote from the Quran
and a commentary on it. After a while my curiosity was satisfied and I
unsubscribed. The next day I found myself subscribed again. After
several attempts to leave the list I contacted the list owner. I did
not hear back until I contacted him several more times. Finally I got
a reply telling me that I must remain subscribed because he was trying
to save me from the fire. Apparently he meant hell fire. Somehow I
finally talked him into letting me go. Does this behavior sound
familiar? Well, I am pretty sure that it was not Mustafa unless he
uses another Arab pseudonym, but interestingly enough this person was also
based in Egypt.
With Mustafa doing basically the same thing I think I see a pattern
developing. My main beef has always been with Christians, but it is
apparent that if I was in a majority Muslim country they would behave
the same way the Christians do and perhaps even worse. As much as I
would like religion to not be a part of my life it is imposed on me
anyway and I got fed up with it many years ago. I do not back down
from them though. If they want to make fools of themselves I am glad
to help them along. And that is why I have been engaging with Mustafa.
I point out his logical fallacies just to point up how foolish he is
making himself look. I also point out to him how hypocritical he is
being when he complains about others being disrespectful to him. He is
encouraging the disrespect by being disrespectful himself. And, by the
way, when someone screams at a blind person on the street that god has
struck him blind because he turned his back on Jesus then that person
will probably experience some amount of disrespect too.
On 8/1/2017 6:14 PM, Abby Vincent wrote:
Yes, and that's why I've been silent. My religious beliefs are part
of my identity, my culture. I choose not to defend them or say why
they are reasonable. This is true of other aspects of my culture. I
once had a working class friend whose parents threw her out of the
house when she turned 18. She was offended by my father continuing
to send me money from beyond the grave.
I find it strange that some of you consider yourselves converts to
atheism. If you don't hold a belief in God, then God isn't a part
of your life, just like Valentines Day isn't a part of mine.
Abby
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bob Evans
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 8:40 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: [blind-democracy]
I agree with you but I refuse your claim that I am disrespectful
toward Jews and Christians. I criticise ignorance of people not their
beliefs.
I hope you get this.
You may add to your suggestions not to assume things about people we
don't know.
On 8/1/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Please everybody, take all personal attacks, arguments regarding
religion, and posts from other lists, off Blind Democracy. I, and
I'm sure other people, am skipping all emails with the name, Bob
Evans, or Mustafa, and with any subject lines regarding religion. If
Mustafa is disrespectful toward Christians and Jews, so are our non
believing list members who feel impelled to repeat over and over
again their reasons for thinking that religion is nonsense, and that
all believers are stupid and ignorant. One's religious identity is
part of one's personal identity. When, in the guise of intellectual
discussion, you attack an individual's religious belief, it feels
to that person like a personal attack. For people on the political
left, who see themselves as defenders of humanity and civil
liberties, these attacks on other people's beliefs are
unforgiveable. And it is unnecessary to fight back with stronger or nastier
language, when one feels attacked.
That's precisely what Mr. Trump does. Sometimes, silence is the
better part of valor.
Miriam