[opendtv] Re: Rising to the occasion ...

  • From: "John Shutt" <shuttj@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 17:08:51 -0500

----- Original Message ----- From: "John Willkie" <johnwillkie@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 

To: <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 3:47 PM
Subject: [opendtv] Re: Rising to the occasion ...



John;

I'm just now getting back to this, but the clips I provided match up with
the streams I quoted in a previous email message -- I pointed this out, but 
perhaps not explicitly enough.
Hi, John! I was getting worried about you after not hearing from you all day. 


Also, I could have spent much time providing the information on the web
page, but that was more time than I was willing to devote to this.
The information you provided was more than enough to prove my point, sink yours, and yet you still insist otherwise. There is none so blind...
I would highly recommend that you run the KCET stream through the tool that you use to analyze transport streams. I can upload the file to my web site 
and provide you (not the list) with a link to it.
Not necessary, John. You've done that already. KCET broadcasts a 720p, excuse me, broadcasts a 1280x720p59.94 main service and three 704x480i29.97 aspect ratio 4:3 sub services. Exactly the same mix that WKAR-DT airs. 


However, I know that not all tools can deal with live as well as captured
streams.  Gordon Bell (KCET CE) is also available by phone, I suspect.


And KCET is a PBS member station and is available to me via PBS Connect.
Jeremy hasn't visited the station in a day or two, and as I pointed out, he 
can't access his VM from home, or so he has told me.  We're in almost
constant IM contact via skype, and I just got off the telephone with him.
Unless Jeremy tells me that his encoder is set up for 704x480i29.97 Aspect Ratio 16:9, there is no need to drag him in on this anymore. You told me that he routinely does the above, as does a plethora of San Diego broadcasters, but in EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE you were incorrect. Sorry, John, that's just the way it is. 


However, I suspect that will be something of a dead end, since he will
probably refer you back to me on anything highly technical.
Did you set up his digital encoders? If so, then are they set up to broadcast 704x480i29.97 aspect ratio 16:9?
In the face of ambiguous information (the aspect ratio: is it the sar or the 
dar), you make conclusions, even in the face of contrary evidence that I
provided showing that a 1080x1920 was reported by ts reader as aspect ratio 4:3. In contract law -- assuming that the contract language was negotiated 
between the parties -- the party that uses ambiguous language to their
advantage is the "bad guy."
I see no 'sar' or 'dar' in A/53 part 4. I do see 'video_format' and 'active format description.' Please be more precise and translate your 'sar' and 'dar' to the proper A/53 terms so that I may follow your discussion.
I only have your word that you saw a 1920x1080i (frame rate not specified by you) stream that TSReader reported as 4:3. In contract law, I'm sure there's a term for hearsay.
I've provided you with ambiguous information, and you have consistently used 
it to your advantage.  That's telling.
What is telling, John? That you consistently provide me with ambiguous information? You have done no such thing. You provided me with a very comprehensive survey of the San Diego SD market, and to a station they all were video aspect ratio 4:3 for their 704x480i29.97 streams. No ambiguity there whatsoever. 


I tried to resurrect EtherGuide Ferret last night, but I don't have a
working build with me.  I use a variety of tools for analysis, and I know
how my tools stack up against others.  That reduces any ambiguity, for me.


I'm sure EtherGuide Ferret will be resurrected in no time.


I also should clear up something.  You said you were told that the KUSI
stream is 720.  I read that to be 720x480, which isn't that far away from
704x480. Later, you said that was 720x1280 at 60p. Either Fred didn't know 
what he was talking about, or your mistook what he said.  Have you ever
tried to upconvert an NTSC stream to 720x1280x60p? I can safely say that no 
KUSI capture in my collection has 60p, nor does any have 720x1280.  I plan
to talk to the CE in the very near future about a few things.  I will be
very interested in seeing how they convert 480x640x30i to 720x1280x60p.
(Not; they don't do this.)
I cannot be held responsible for your misinterpretation of "720p" to mean 720x480. I don't think a single other reader of OpenDTV was confused as to what "720p" means.
Fred Swift knew exactly what he was talking about, John. As you said yourself: 

"In San Diego, KUSI-DT offers a badly-stretched 4:3 picture in 704x480."
You are correct. Fred admitted to me that the image was badly stretched. He said that they are broadcasting 1280x720p59.94 using upconverted NTSC, and that it was horizontally distorted as a result. He also said that the reason why they are doing this is that they are trying to convince the local cable company to include their digital signal in the cable company's HD Digital tier. His number is 858-571-5151, ask for Fred in Engineering.
From time to time, I have reported issues that I discern with Ts reader, and last time I checked, he was a member of this list. The most recent time, it 
was my mistake.  If I thought I had identified something that needs to be
changed with Ts Reader, I wouldn't do it here; Rod is responsive to issues
raised by paying customers.
Yes he is. He has responded several times to suggestions from my boss, Gary Blievernicht, who is a very satisfied user of TSReader Professional. 


I have limited time, and I have perceptual problems with text-formatted
messages that have interlineations.  I have read your message below to the
bitter end.
Thank you. I hope these interlineations are unambiguous to you. I find this format the best way to refute point-by-point a long and varied-subject email. 


I also explore ambiguities (much learning there) with tools, I don't
knowingly use ambiguities to my advantage in arguments.  I even try to
include ambiguous or contrary information, in the interest of full
disclosure.
John, I am not using ambiguities to my advantage. Show me a single TSReader screen capture taken from an active broadcaster in the San Diego area that identifies a 704x480i29.97 aspect ratio 16:9 video stream and I will send you $100 cash. Stipulation: It must be captured from a live broadcast stream in the San Diego market, it cannot be a cached transport stream, it cannot be 704x480i29.97 aspect ratio 4:3 with 16:9 letterboxed video contained therein, and no collusion may take place between you and the station to temporarily broadcast such a stream for the purpose of collecting the money. You have until Monday, November 12th, 11:59 PM EST, to email said screen capture to me to qualify for the cash reward.
Said funds will be mailed to you in the form of a single $100 bill, by PayPal money transfer, or by Western Union wire. Mutually agreed upon alternatives are also welcome. 


I will continue to lecture.  You need to learn what you know from a tool,
and what you don't know from a tool.


And John, I always enjoy learning from every tool at my disposal.
I must go home now, but I am scheduled for work tomorrow so I look forward to coming in on Saturday and view your TSReader screen capture. 

John




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