[access-uk] Re: Solution to jumpy web pages?
- From: "Damon Rose" <damon.rose@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 16:10:58 +0100
I think what I was getting at tho is the fact that coders often talk
about accesibility as a code issue - so something is either complient or
non complient. But in the field, even with the most accessible looking
web page, some aspects of it serve to make screenreaders stop working
properly.
It's not about readability or usability of content ... It's the fact
that some of the content on the page is disruptive to the point where we
can't even read the good accessible bits.
Make sense?
Really hoping HTML 5 isn't an access washout. I'd be surprised if it
was. Oh and getting a bit sick of seeing landmarks cluttering up web
pages, don't know about anyone else.
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Jonathan
Sent: 08 July 2010 16:04
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Solution to jumpy web pages?
Following the recent thing about the best way to quote, I'm going to
top-reply to Alisdairs points.
I don't agree that HTML5 "will make things worse". If used properly it
won't, but if someone isn't going to use something properly, they never
will, whatever the technology.
For example, I mentioned that the Talking Newspaper Federation have a
site which is pretty much plain html, but they've used an unnecessary
inaccessible JavaScript dropdown menu, AND their feedback form is in
non-accessible Flash, and many of their pages are in pdf format. All of
these are decade-old technologies, as is Java.
On the other hand, the site I've been working on, and the playback
system it uses, are heavily reliant on javascript and ajax, and would
have been totally impossible without html 5.
And yet it passes every single one of the most stringent levels of WAI
and WACG tests and works fine with all screenreaders (or it does now
that someone from this group pointed out a quirk - amazing what the
automated tools miss!).
The result is that no plugins are needed, and every single aspect of
control of the player is accessible not just visually but also through
keypresses and tabbed indexing.
Something that would not have been possible without html5. But the
important thing is there's a fallback to the most simple technology -
the site works just as well in Lynx, a text-browser from 20 years ago.
We covered this recently with that radio site on the Isle of Wight which
was totally inaccessible. In html5, there's no reason why that site
should have looked any different to sighted users, nor been anything
less than totally accessible for screen-reader users.
Yes, it's hard hard work getting a site to that stage, but if people
really care about accessibility then actually, once you've done it once
and learnt the ropes, there's no excuse.
If a self-taught sole-trader with a small office, two PCs and the will
to learn can do it, there's no excuse for big companies to not do it!
On 8 July 2010 15:28, Alasdair King <alasdairking@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Then came Web 2.0, or AJAX, or another buzzword. Now web pages update
> and change while you are looking at them. Which is fine if you are
> looking at them with eyes, but not if you're using a screenreader.
>
> HTML5 will make this worse. Applications are moving from operating
> systems to web pages, but they don't have the hooks and features that
> have taken years to implement and let screenreaders use applications.
> So you used to have Microsoft Outlook, which supported MSAA, and now
> you have Google Mail, which, well, much more complex. The browser its
> in supports MSAA, but that's an extra layer of indirection. ARIA is
> supposed to help fix this, but it's still going to be hard.
>
> You can stop this by turning off Javascript in your browser, so pages
> can only change if you trigger it. But you'll then find that many
> pages stop working at all, because Javascript is the new fashionable
> thing and so useful it's used everywhere.
>
> Best wishes,
> Alasdair
>
> On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Dave Taylor <dave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
>> Damon
>>
>>
>>
>> Here are my suggestions. In Jaws, you can switch almost everything
>> off. Try setting Show Inline Frames, Refresh Page Automatically and
>> everything else you can find in the verbosity dialogue off. Only
>> switch them back on when they cause you a problem. One advantage of
>> IE with Jaws is that you can have specific settings for particular
>> sites, but they haven't implemented this in Firefox sadly.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you truly want a flat web experience, like it was in 1996, Webbie
>> is the thing for you, especially as you can switch between its text
>> view and its IE view, and decide which it should start in.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, make use of live bookmarks in Firefox or RSS in IE to view
headlines.
>> Then you need only visit the page for actual text. You could also
>> search for text only or mobile site links using the links list or
search feature.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>> Behalf Of Damon Rose
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 2:06 PM
>> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [access-uk] Solution to jumpy web pages?
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi there.
>>
>> I'm wondering if someone knows of a solution to this. Perhaps a
>> plug-in or a Firefox extension or a cut down browser of some sort?
>>
>> Most often when I use the web, I use it to read pages. I don't want
>> high functionality. The early days of the web with flat HTML pages
>> were the best as far as I'm concerned.
>>
>> Oftentimes, when I go to newspaper websites or many other pages, my
>> JAWS cursor and Braille display starts fidgeting alarmingly, it
>> doesn't let me arrow down a page properly, it gets stuck and then
>> during reading my cursor gets whipped away so that I have to find the
>> text again and the point in the text where I left off ... just to
have
>> the cursor whipped away all over again 30 seconds later.
>>
>> I imagine this is down to Flash, Air, Silverlight, or various Java,
>> ajax, elements on a page. What I've never had the time to do is
>> investigate this to find out which is the worst culprit and why.
>>
>> It's annoying that you can go to a website that is otherwise fully
>> access complient yet there was barely any point them putting in that
>> work if screenreaders just slip and slide over the top of it as if
>> they were skating on ice.
>>
>> Before you ask, I'm working with the latest version of jaws and my
>> computer is entirely virus and adware free. I'm writing this email
>> today after attempting a bit of research on something and failing.
>> I'm a little frustrated.
>>
>> So. How do I stop it? Do I have any kind of control over it? Turning
>> off Flash in the verbosity settings doesn't work on many sites so
>> obviously the issue isn't just around Flash.
>>
>> Or perhaps it's just my computer and every computer I've ever used.
>>
>> Any thoughts on how to conquer this, iether by tweaking my browser,
>> adding plug-ins or extensions, changing browser, viewing sites thru
>> some kind of filter site, whatever, I'm keen to hear from you. I'm
getting sick of it.
>>
>> Thanks v much.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Damon Rose
>> Senior Content Producer bbc.co.uk/ouch BBC Vision Learning
>>
>> Tel: 020 8752 4427 (x0224427)
>> email: damon.rose@xxxxxxxxx
>>
>> Have you heard the award-winning Ouch Podcast yet? A razor sharp
>> disability talk show presented by Mat Fraser and Liz Carr:
>> www.bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk
>> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain
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>
>
> --
> Alasdair King
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