[AR] Re: Fwd: Re: Way off topic (was Nitrating C60)
- From: "Troy Prideaux" <GEORDI@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 12:36:07 +1100
My point was basically - SO???
You thermally store eg (heat molten salt), you pressurize air underground, you
chill air (as mentioned), you lift something heavy, you chemically store... You
use your imagination.
Troy
>-----Original Message-----
>From: arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>Behalf Of Rand Simberg
>Sent: Tuesday, 17 March 2015 12:24 PM
>To: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [AR] Re: Fwd: Re: Way off topic (was Nitrating C60)
>
>Not sure where you live, but there are a lot of places where there is
>"no higher ground."
>
>On 2015-03-16 18:01, Troy Prideaux wrote:
>> Energy storage is an issue with thousands of solutions. Generally
>> obvious things like pumping water to higher ground are reasonably
>> efficient solutions however, even if there’s no water, novel ideas
>> like storing air into a cryogenic state is being investigated with
>> promising efficiency IIRC.
>>
>> Troy.
>>
>> -------------------------
>>
>> FROM: arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] ON BEHALF OF Bill Claybaugh
>> SENT: Tuesday, 17 March 2015 11:27 AM
>> TO: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> SUBJECT: [AR] Fwd: Re: Way off topic (was Nitrating C60)
>>
>> Sorry, I meant this to go to the list.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>>> FROM: Bill Claybaugh <wclaybaugh2@xxxxxxxxxx>
>>> DATE: March 16, 2015, 7:27:14 PM EDT
>>> TO: Keld List Laursen <kl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> SUBJECT: RE: [AR] RE: WAY OFF TOPIC (WAS NITRATING C60)
>>
>>> Keld:
>>>
>>> Pardon me for engaging in the American habit of using the first name
>>> of someone to whom I have not been introduced.
>>>
>>> I don't see these as issues: it is the very purpose of storage to
>>> cover the variability in the supply; but I grant you that volcanos
>>> might require other solutions...of which a solar power satellite is
>>> obviously not one....
>>>
>>> Further; interconnection solves the "nighttime" issue: at the limit,
>>> connecting all the worlds grids assures that about half the grid is
>>> in sunlight at all times.
>>>
>>> And all this is a natural evolution of existing technology and
>>> economic trends that does not require a handful of miracles to
>>> create (as does a solar power satellite:) if such a thing made
>>> sense, money would be flowing into it. Even Elon thinks batteries
>>> for storage are a better use of his wealth than SPS.
>>>
>>> I don't doubt that over the next several decades the existing plant
>>> will be used to supply the "baseload" power: at marginal cost, such
>>> plants are competitive with storage until they start to wear out
>>> between 2030 and 2060. Then investment will move to interconnection
>>> and storage.
>>>
>>> This is all just basic economics.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Mar 15, 2015, at 2:45 PM, Keld List Laursen
>>> <kl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> Bill: The problem is that terrestrial solar panels don't deliver
>>> anything when it is dark, when it's clody or when a local volcano
>>> has flooded the sky with dyst. You therefore have to have the
>>> possibility to deliver a supply of power based on something else,
>>> like coal.
>>>
>>> When the solar panels are delivering, you can turn the base load
>>> plant somewhat down. But as it has to be available immediately when
>>> the sky clouds over, then you cannot turn it off.
>>>
>>> These problems are addressed by your putting the solar panels into
>>> orbit.
>>>
>>> Keld Laursen
>>>
>>> Sendt fra Samsung Tab
>>>
>>> -------- Oprindelig meddelelse --------
>>> Fra: Bill Claybaugh <wclaybaugh2@xxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Dato: 15/03/2015 14.34 (GMT+01:00)
>>> Til: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Cc: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Emne: [AR] Re: Way off topic (was Nitrating C60)
>>>
>>> Ian:
>>>
>>> I don't understand: price is price. If rooftop solar is cheaper than
>>> coal then it will be installed and the base load reduced.
>>>
>>> Once there is enough of it--Germany has this issue at 3% solar--the
>>> distribution system has to be changed to accept multipoint input and
>>> storage added. Which the Germans are currently planning.
>>>
>>> That is what one can see happening today. Why do want to spend
>>> bajillions on pipe dreams?
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Mar 14, 2015, at 9:29 AM, Ian Woollard <ian.woollard@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> It's qualitatively different to rooftop solar; powersats are
>>> baseload power.
>>>
>>> Baseload power seems to be getting relatively more expensive right
>>> now; it's traditionally produced by burning fossil fuels, but fossil
>>> fuels are becoming difficult and expensive.
>>>
>>> The baseload alternatives include nuclear, but nuclear has
>>> problematic aspects.
>>>
>>> On 14 March 2015 at 13:29, Bill Claybaugh <wclaybaugh2@xxxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Solar rooftop installations already meet coal--with a subsidy--and
>>> are projected to be lower cost on an absolute basis w/i five years.
>>>
>>> I want to spend a bajillion dollars on this BS why?
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Mar 14, 2015, at 2:56 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> As some of you know, I have been working off and on for forty
>>> years on
>>>> getting the cost to GEO down to where power satellites can
>>> undercut
>>>> coal.
>>>>
>>>> Currently working on a thermal power satellite design that looks
>>> to
>>>> come in at 32,500 tons and puts out 5 GWe at the rectenna bus
>>> bars.
>>>>
>>>> To undercut coal, the total cost can't exceed $2.4 B/GW. For 6.5
>>>> kg/kW, the cost to get the parts to GEO can't exceed $200/kg.
>>> Between
>>>> Skylon at more than 10,000 flights per year and an old proposal
>>> by
>>>> William Brown, it looks like that can be done.
>>>>
>>>> It's here
>>> http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?arnumber=7046244
>>> [1]
>>>> for those who can get through the pay wall. If not, there is a
>>> copy
>>>> here:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5iotdmmTJQsc2htUG5yVTczT2xBME1GOGhzWlBaWk
>g5R29v/view?usp=sharing
>>> [2]
>>>>
>>>> Off topic, but some of you may find it amusing.
>>>>
>>>> Keith
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> -Ian Woollard
>>>
>>> =
>>
>>
>> Links:
>> ------
>> [1] http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?arnumber=7046244
>> [2]
>>
>https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5iotdmmTJQsc2htUG5yVTczT2xBME1GOGhzWlBaWk
>g5R29v/view?usp=sharing
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