It seems like the money would be best spent attempting to turn the effect up to 11 rather than on ultra-sensitive measuring devices. -p On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 3:24 PM, <qbert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > OK Monroe, yes it can be done relatively easy and somewhat cheaper than > 100K. But it needs to be done in a way that will meet "scientific" testing > standards, that means the right apparatus for power generation, calibration > of the testing equipment, testing, the exact duplication of the device, > etc. That is all going to cost money. The testing must be done by somebody > that has the credibility and the knowledge of the methodology used in > testing this device. We also can't rush into this with out setting down > what will be considered a valid or invalid result. It needs to be done > right. > > And while as you say you think you can machine the parts and you can pull > 10 to the 8th torr for vacuum, and A simple interferometer should be > sufficient for the measurement. Yes it will show if it works or not but not > in the way that it would be accepted by most of the scientific community. > It needs to be done right so lets just do it right! > > Robert > > > At 02:22 PM 8/4/2014, you wrote: > >> Why do you need $100k to build one of these? The more I look into it I >> don't see where you need it. I can try this in my shop. What's going on >> here? I don't get it? Is it a schema to raise money for research? What's >> the pitch? A simple interferometer should be sufficient for the >> measurement. I can pull 10 to the 8th torr I can machine the parts it looks >> like. What else do you need? Monroe > -------- Original Message -------- > >> Subject: [AR] Re: NASA test of quantum vacuum plasma thruster (was > >> "Anyone heard of this?") > From: Peter Fairbrother <zenadsl6186@xxxxxxxxx> >> > Date: Mon, August 04, 2014 12:35 pm > To: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > >> On 04/08/14 17:47, Ian Woollard wrote: > > On 4 August 2014 16:54, Peter >> Fairbrother <zenadsl6186@xxxxxxxxx > > <mailto:zenadsl6186@xxxxxxxxx>> >> wrote: > > > > Suppose, as has been claimed, the drive is somehow >> exchanging > > momentum with the entire universe. The momentum of the >> universe may > > have a (?local) velocity - which would be >> mathematically equivalent > > to a preferred frame of reference. > > > >> > If so, there need be no violation of either of the conservation laws. >> > > > > > > Even that wouldn't be of any practical use for propulsion. > > >> > > There's basically zero chance that you would moving close the preferred >> > > frame of reference's speed. And if you're not.. .big trouble in little >> > > china. > > > > To see this, consider that we're already going at (say) >> >300km/s due to > > orbital speed, the speed of the Sun within the local >> cluster and the > > orbital speed around the Milky Way, and the speed of >> the Milky Way > > relative to other galaxies... so it takes enormous energy >> to make quite > > modest increases in speed because energy goes as 0.5 m >> V^2. > > > > i.e. > > > > E = 0.5 m V^2 > > > > where V is the speed in the >> preferred frame of reference. > > > > differentiating wrt time: > > > > P = >> m V dV/dt > > > > dv/dt = P/mV > > > > so acceleration for any given power >> is inversely proportional to initial > > speed. That's the same reason cars >> accelerate very fast initially, and > > then accelerates ever more slowly. >> But here you would be going at > > extreme speeds to start with. Rockets >> and ion drives circumvent this due > > to Oberth effect and get constant >> acceleration from constant power. > > > > Plugging in numbers here it would >> cost 300kW to accelerate 1kg by 1m/s^2 > > which is insanely inefficient. > >> > So, 300 kW per N. > > The highest claim in the paper, afaict, is 17 W for >> 91 uN - or 186 kW > per N, not so different. > > There may also be local >> issues, eg the Milky Way's mass may drag an > effective local frame >> velocity zero closer. > > And what about if you want to go sideways? > > > >> The point I am trying to make (while I don't actually believe in the > >> thruster at all) is if the explanation is as above, if the quantum > >> vaccuum has a (?local) velocity, it does not violate Newtonian physics > or >> Special Relativity - it just adds a single new item, the local > velocity >> of the universe, to the laws of physics. > > And maybe it answers a >> long-standing question about Special Relativity > too - the universe does >> in fact seem to have some sort of preferred > frame of reference. That is >> unexplained in SR. > > There is also an asymmetry in SR time dilation which >> it also might help > explain as well, but probably better offlist. > > > > >> We do not know all the laws of physics. Not even close. > > > > -- Peter >> Fairbrother >> > > >