Bob,
Regardless of all the Fairy Tales about a wonderful Afterlife, we only
have the word of Men, telling us that it exists. Men set down the
words in all of our Holy Books. We are told that we must accept in
Faith, these Truths. But do you accept the words from the mouth of
Donald Trump? Or Barack Obama? Or George Bush II? Absolute power is
achieved when we are convinced of the Truth without having the need to
have it proven to us. Donald Trump would have us believe that he will
return us to our former Greatness. But is he doing this? His devoted
followers believe he is. And there is absolutely no actual evidence
that he is doing that. But that doesn't bother his dedicated
Believers. Indeed, they have Created an entire Make Believe History.
So, is that the Real World? Or is your world the Real World? Or is
mine? None of us agree
and none of us can give proof positive that we are in the Real World.
I find much to respect in the Scriptures of All Faiths. The words of
the great prophets can make profound differences in people's outlook
on life. But nowhere is there evidence of a Life Beyond this Life. I
have worked with many elderly blind people who have slowly forgotten
their past. One woman could no longer remember how to speak. She
eventually starved to death because she no longer knew how to eat. Do
you have proof that her Soul has been held safe, despite the
deterioration of her brain?
While I believe that we are all part of the same Energy. and that
energy will always exist as part of whatever this vast Universe is, I
do not see evidence that our individual memories will survive.
Therefor, while our energy lives eternally, that energy that makes us
individuals will no longer exist.
But then, that's my reality. and I'm stuck with it.
Carl Jarvis
On 12/2/17, Bob Evans <ebob824@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Well, it isn't about what religion you choose, it is why do you
deceive children?
And, I really wonder about your feeling when you or Carl die.
On 11/15/17, Carl Jarvis <carjar82@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Christianity, at least in America, has been corrupted by
capitalism/commercialism. All Major Christian Sacred Days have been
commercialized. But so have Fourth of July, Veterans Day, Labor Day,
Thanksgiving, President's Day, Memorial Day. Check them out as they
come around again. "President's Day big sale!" "Mother's Day flowers
and chocolates", "Buy plenty of Blatz Beer and settle back to watch
the Turkey Day football game".
There are no more "special Days". There are only days that offer
retailers the opportunity to shove some more products off on an
already over saturated public. In the eyes of our International
Corporations, there are no such separations as Christians, Secular,
Jewish, Muslim, Pagan or Aborigines. There are only Consumers!
But on the other hand, we Americans have corrupted most of the Special
Holidays, altering their original purposes. Thanksgiving, for
example, is removed as a simple day of thanking our Creator for
providing for our sustenance. Instead, in a majority of American
households, it is a time for watching football, getting plastered and
stuffing our faces with food we can't afford to buy during the rest of
the year.
My Great-Great Aunt Anna Jarvis, began Mother's Day in remembrance of
all our mothers, by giving her a white carnation. Then we needed to
buy a Hallmark card, a big box of candy, take her out to dinner and
even buy her a brand new stove! And Christmas! Jesus was born, so
the records say, in a simple manger. He was born into poverty. There
was no room at the inn for the likes of this poor man, Joseph and
Mary, his pregnant young wife. So how do we honor this most mighty of
all Christian events, the birth of Jesus? By heaping lavish gifts
upon everyone including the mail carrier and the garbage collector.
Of course December 25 never was actually the birthday of Jesus. More
likely he was born in the early Spring...maybe April 13(my birthday).
But no matter what day it was, American Corporations would have
corrupted it, too. Corporate Capitalism is like a huge, fast growing
Cancer. It will consume all in its path, until there is nothing more.
Then it will die. But we, along with all our piles of gifts and our
great Myths, will have been wiped off the face of this Universe.
Carl Jarvis
On 11/14/17, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Mustafa, throughout my life most of the people I have ever met have been
what I started out on this list calling secular people. By that I mean
not only atheists, but a lot of people who profess a religion too. It
was pointed out to me that I was using the word secular incorrectly if I
was going to include people who profess a religion and I think I came up
with a better name for them, religiously tolerant people. Even though I
include atheists I think that the most of them probably adhere to some
religion. But once they profess a religion they tend to shut up about
it. There are many people whom I knew for years and did not know
anything about their religious opinions and never even thought about it.
Then some incidental comment comes along and I find out that not only do
they consider themselves to belong to a religion, but that they even
frequently attend church. Once I find out, though, things just continue
as they always have and I never hear anything out of them about religion
again. Similarly, I am sure that most of them do not even necessarily
know that I am an atheist. It is something that I do not keep a secret
in the least, but when a person never gives me reason to bring it up I
am not particularly inclined to bring it up myself. But incidental
comments are made and on occasion someone I have known for a long time
will find out for the first time that I am an atheist and there might be
a brief comment on it, but then the subject just doesn't come up again.
They do not try to convert me. They do not make a big deal out of it.
They just note that it is a characteristic of mine and they show every
indication that it is okay with them. This is tolerance. It is a way
that people who very sharply disagree on something can get along and be
friendly to each other. Again, I have observed this to be the case with
most people, even a large majority of people. Then there is another kind
of person. The other kind of person will usually announce their religion
immediately upon your meeting them. Then you find out that you cannot
have a conversation with them without their pushing their religion on
you. If you try walking away they follow you around pushing their
religion. They never tire of badgering others about their religion. When
I run into one of those people who want to push their religion on me my
reaction is to push back and to argue with them. I have noticed that
other people become angry and hostile toward them. They have other
obnoxious characteristics too. They usually regard themselves to be
superior to the people whom they badger. They tend to be very self
satisfied with themselves. All in all they are just unpleasant people
and the last word I would use to describe them is tolerant. I am sorry
to say, Mustafa, that you fall into this second category. Pretty much
every email you send out pushes religion. You never shut up about it.
And like the others of that type I have ever met you provoke hostility.
Give some thought to that. Do you really want to devote your life to
making enemies? Do you really want to continue to provoke hostility
against yourself?
On 11/14/2017 12:46 PM, Bob wrote:
From the three wise men to the star of Bethlehem, most biblical
scholars
don't agree on how much of the Christmas chronicle is historically
accurate.
Most Christians were brought up believeing in the Nativity tale. Islam
theoretically agrees with its essence. However, the concept in our
tradition
is different in major ways. The fact that Christians today knew what
Christmas is, yet they still celebrate it is uglier excuse from the
guilt of
words. Pastor Jason, I don’t think it is ethically sound to scold
Catholicism for this. Christianity in the States doesn’t necessarily
care
about religious devotion more than temporalty. Christians tend to
celebrate
what they allegedly consider Christ’s birth with heathenishly
affiliated
tradition. As I said in previous posts, religion in the west is not
as it
is here. Islam enjoins its followers to abide by unwaveringly faithful
principles. Despite Christmas’s disingenuous origin, Christians chose
to
eternize it. This is what I call, Christmas crisis. People tend to
dispose
its avowedly pagan inception, as if they knew nothing. I here, may
sternly
inculpate my Muslim fellows for blasphemously decorating a Christmas
tree.
Why would you do that? If they chose to carelessly desecrate the
divine, why
would we in any manner attempt to imitate them? I may ask pastor Jason
to
specify a Christian community across his country which determinedly
interdicts celebrating Christmas. Everywhere in the States, a battle
for
Christmas had been fought and won. Someone once told me, we celebrate
Christmas with giving gifts because it is the birth of Christ, the
gift
from heaven. They struggle to ritualize secularised practices with
involving irrational and perhaps, absurd conceptions. Christmas is
recognised for mass commerce and abundance of terrestrial welfare.
This is
why it has been intemperately desacralised. For consecutive ages, no
one has
ever questioned Christmas’s authenticity and in particular, from
religious
perspective. I have been constantly posing this enquiry to a wide list
of
pastoral staff across the States. Well, some of them acknowledged its
heterodoxy hitherto, they didn’t strive in the cause of opposing it.
This is
explicitly paradoxical. If you are convinced you shouldn’t celebrate
Christmas, then why didn’t you opine this opinion unhesitatingly? These
Churches which you wholly belong to aren’t based on faith rhetoric.
These
Churches are established to insure your corporeal growth. I don’t
oppose
everything about Christmas though. I hold great respect for Christmas’s
tradition of keeping kinship ties and gathering with families. I
honour what’s
good and despise what’s evil. Why don’t you cleanse these Churches
from
temporal pursuits? You actually couldn’t because many of you are
certified
pianists at Church. Many of you are into Organ business for terrestrial
gain. This is the crisis of Christmas and this is the crisis of
churching in
western countries. What choirs have to do with religious ceremonies?
These
are essentially meant for your own melody and temporal satisfaction.
If we
look closely, we will find this phenomenon predominantly dominating
your
Churches. If you worship god with music, how do you entertain
yourselves
then? Please, don’t misapprehend my purpose. I don’t destine to
incite
someone’s offence nor to just bait you. My proposition is primarily
based on
my devotion of feting faith. I suppose my concerns are rationally
corroborated. If you are either united Methodist or Pentecostal, this
proposition is destined to address your congregation. Had either Jesus
or
any of his disciples played music for worship, it would have been
theologically justified. The problematic factor is, these practices
were
later developed by people who surely, never saw Jesus in real. I
again, don’t destine to deliberately provoke someone’s outrage. What I
want Church people to
recognise, if you are really serious about turning to and worshipping
the One true God, this is not the proper path to do so. Islam is the
clearest way to get through. It is the finest choice to reach up to the
celestial realm. In orthodox Islam, sincerity to Allah is a major
tenet for
your deed to either be blessed or disgraced. In Islam, we are strictly
prohibited to call on others than Allah. Even Muhammad, peace and
blessings
be upon him, we never call onto his help. Yes, in our creed, we
believe in
his intercession on judgement day with the Grace of Allah but, he has
no
authority to forgive our sins, neither to benefit or harm us. No one
is to
either forgive or punish except Allah, Who created us and He sustains
and
maintains our existence on earth. Why do you worship Jesus? Isn’t he
someone
whom Allah created? I call you to worship Allah glory be to Him. My
intent
with this invitation is based on seeking providential Grace. I call
you to
the blessedness of the hereafter. If you are earnest about finding
truth,
you at the very least will consider this invitation at some point. I
seek no
wordly attainment with this proposal. My hope is to earn Allah’s
reward on
judgement day. As devout monotheists, we ought to utterly forbear
Christmas
festivities. As for them, they are inordinately indulged with temporal
ascendancy. Despite their proclamation of preserving the gospel’s
sentiment,
they plainly belie what they preach. Where is music in Jesus’s
ministry?
Their relationship with religion is primarily based on worldly-minded
interest. I do not make this up, you just need to reflect on what
Christmas
is for many of them. We won’t ever tolerate portraying faith in
satirical
renditions as many of them do. This is why, Christmas became a majorly
corrupt festival. When we talk about religion in the west and
particularly
in the States, we have got to keep in mind its staidly prepossessing
notion.
They virtually know nothing about anything outside American borders.
Their
Churches consequently are labelled with americanised characteristics.
For this reason, I sought reaching pastoral staff across the States to
leniently
remind them about their trenchant role to rectify the situation. I
don’t
prejudiciously oppose everything about Christmas. I in fact like about
it
the social tradition of gathering with families. This is a gracious
practice
and it’s a mutual value between Islam and the Christian tradition.
During
most of the year, people are so busy to see their family members and
particularly, if some of them are settled out of town or in another
state.
So, you could be living in Florida and your relatives are living in
West
Virginia or South Carolina, for instance. Christmas is a good reason to
drive or fly to see family, relatives and loved ones. I endorse this
particular value. In Ramadan, people here observe the same value of
keeping
kinship ties. They typically gather for breakfast, day in, day out. My
main
message in this essay is not to purposelessly criticise Christmas. I
rather
want to clarify some important concepts. First of which, is our
cultural
independence. I yes endorse some aspects of Christmas but, that
doesn’t mean
I have got to imitate it. Second, Islam encourages me to agnise
diversity
without having to be manipulated. Third, despite detriment, I must
clear up
these numerous misconceptions that are incessantly besieging either my
regional based or identity. I am Muslim and I do see everything from
Islamic
standpoint. That is quite natural because I adhere what I believe.
Some of
you may have heard about the terrible incident of targeting the
principal
Catholic Cathedral here last December. Also, you may have heard of
these
callous assaults against two Churches at the beginning of the past
summer.
That was acrimonious, vicious, timid, bestial and terrorist act. There
is
nothing in what I wholeheartedly believe that gives credit to such
mischievous deeds. Christians here are our fellows in patriotism. I
proudly
live nearby a prominent Church in my area. It is called the Square
Church
because it is located in a main square or the Red Church because it
has red
walls. I ordinarily hear its bell as I pass by its complex on my way
to
work on Sunday morning. The one who evoked this vicious assault on the
Cathedral intended to provoke sectarian strife domestically. Well,
this for
sure won’t ever happen here. Muslims and Christians in this country
tend to
stick to deeply fraternal fundamentals. Despite our religious
dissension, we
sanely discern our mutual accountability of guarding this nation’s
unity. In
the face of adversity during Liberation Square days, we firmly stood
next to
each other. Sometimes, you may not easily recognise whether a person is
Christian or Muslim because here, they may look too similar, unless
you
interrogatively ask about someone’s family name. However, there are
some
Coptics who’re exhaustingly abominable. As right-wing evangelists in
various
circumstances, they like to act the victim role. They pretend religious
persecution and then, they flee to the nearest foreign embassy to
acquire
visa for refugees. I know many people who have done that. They
particularly
went to the States with telling counterfeit stories about persecution,
some
of them even claimed being ex Muslims and so on. This is unsurprisingly
typical, and in particular for someone serves at the missionary field.
Those
people are thoroughly trained to empower illusions and repellent
dissimulations. They will align with even pagans to detestably asperse
Muslims. I know Arab and even Egyptian Christians who cowardly fled to
the
States to viciously denounce where they came from and to methodically
deceive their disinformed recipients. I apologise but, I couldn’t talk
about
Christians in the States without rendering these vital facts so
clearly.
Perhaps you don’t know something about this and therefore, I urge you
to
verify my claims. You shouldn’t accept them without evidence. I want
you to
critically track this phenomenon and determine its actual cause. I
personally assume it is the longstanding hostility of Orientalism
toward
anything has the name Muslim. It furthermore is the solidly established
coalition between Christendom and Secularism. They mutually despise the
concepts of obligation and prohibition. Traditionally, Christianity
doesn’t
demand its followers to adhere certain rulings or social conduct.
Thence,
they have a major trouble with Islamic jurisprudence. They don’t really
follow something which tells them, do this and don’t do that. If
someone
wants to pray, he is welcome but if someone doesn’t want to, it is
tolerable. If someone doesn’t drink, he is considered pious but if
someone
likes to drink, he isn’t punished. If someone favours to get married,
he is
considered reputable but if someone chooses to engage in illicit
wedlock, he
isn’t punished. Do you see the plain difference between the two
traditions?
Islam is troubling for them because it regulates daily pursuits,
business transactions and so on. Certainly, this is not what they
want. They
like to practice religion according to what they desire. It is sort of
state
based temperament. Today, I am appealed to drink, so I’ll just do that.
Tomorrow, I am not interested to drink, so I’ll refrain. This is how it
works. Lastly, to Christians who receive this, I testify to the divine
that
I do not seek angering someone with what I said. When I say Christmas
crisis, I mean Christmas holiday not Christmas story. As I said at the
beginning of this, Nativity chronicle is graciously reported in the
Koran.
Jesus, peace be upon him was born of a virtuous virgin. She is Mary
peace
be upon her. Some of you may know that a whole chapter in the Koran is
named
after her. Christians say she was married to Joseph but that is
actually
incorrect. She was a celibate woman, no mortal touched her. Allah made
the
birth of Jesus miraculous to demonstrate His distinctly providential
Omnipotence. This miracle occurred to test who is going to persist
and who
is going to fall in tribulation. Unfortunately, Christology devotees
fallen in disgrace. They consciously opted to mendaciously exalt a
human being that
Allah willed to made his birth miraculous. Instead of worshipping Who
made
the miracle, they worship the miracle. This is why, we consider
Christians
heathens. Islam enjoins its followers to worship the One Who created
everyone and everything. Allah’s unparalleled Omnipotence qualifies
Him to
create a man in a female’s womb without any masculine intervension.
Even if
we believe the crucifixion account for the sake of arguing, Jesus
didn’t
rise himself from death. Allah rose him. Thus far, there is no valid
reason
to justify deifying Jesus. This is why, Christians tend to prettify
their religious thoughts emotionally. They focus so much on attracting
your emotional
factors. They have no other method to present their religion to
people. They
chose to intemperately be misguided. As Muslims, we are honoured of
preserving the genuine Christmas tale. In your version of the story, it
isn't clear, is Jesus the creator or part of the creation? I asked
this question to many pastoral associates and they seemingly failed to
tackle its kernel competently. To gospellers out there, I keenly urge
you to carry on the subsequent task. Please, assemble the four
accounts of Crucifixion narrative in a paralleled fashion and examine,
are they necessarily identical in their description? I urged many of
you to cite one quote in the whole scripture, where Jesus explicitly
states, I am God, worship me. All your opted remarks of alleged claims
of deification are implicitly construed. The claim of Jesus stating he
is divine in the Bible is just a total fraud. It is exactly like,
Donald Trump said he respects his rivals. Both are fibs. As for Trump,
I don't see where is the point of him being evangelists primal mentor.
I recall when he fallaciously exhibited his Bible to unethically
entice his deeply disinformed audience. As for Christmas chisellers,
what about Santa Claus? Santa is the legendary patron saint of
children. He is an imaginary being who is thought to bring presents
to children at Christmas. Excuse me folks, why won't you frankly
unveil his actual name and character? Would you please tell us a bit
about Saint Nicholas? He was a bishop in Asia Minor who is
enigmatically associated with Santa Claus. He lived in the fourth
century. He is conspicuously notorious of savagely subjugating
monotheists to relentless bedevilment, persecution, theological
inhibition and inclement carnages. So, in other words, you have
viciously made an innocent figure out of some criminal. What a
disgraceful act. You have lied to all children of the world with this.
Christmas crisis goes beyond the terrible deceit of Santa Claus. I
urge you to gradually expose the remainder. I look forward to hearing
from you. I'll professionally interact to your returned threads in the
manner I deem appropriate. Thank you for patiently reading, Bob Evans
_______________________________