Miriam,
First, thank you for what I am taking as Kind Words. But when I talk
about changing my beliefs, it's sort of like the Climate Change
debate. You need to see the 82 year overview to get the sense of what
I'm talking about. Just viewing me over a couple of years or so is
not going to give a true picture.
In my wild roller coaster life, I have been a sneaky chicken liver, a
born again Bible thumping True Believer, speaking in tongues and being
Baptized in the Holy Spirit, and after a ten year Religious Adventure
I became a Backslider. During those first years of entering the Land
of the Blind, I once again returned to that Missionary fervor, leading
the charge against oppressive state agencies, and proclaiming Truth as
told to us by Jacobus tenBroek...and yes, by the great showman
himself, Kenneth Jernigan.
That same absolute certainty that I represented Truth, brought me into
Rehab work. Really, I set out to turn every new blind person into
little carbon copies of Kenneth Jernigan.
And then I went through my Bureaucrat period. I still paid lip
service to the NFB, but turned my attention on climbing up the ladder
of success, at least as successful as government agency work is
concerned.
Again, something in me snapped after I became assistant director for
field services, at the Department of Services for the Blind. I think
that was my Agnostic equivalent to the Christian's "Come to Jesus"
experience. For the first time in my life I turned my focus inward.
It was ugly in there. I had spent a life time avoiding looking
inward. And it showed. It's taken me about 30 years to get some
sense inside my head, but I really do alter my opinions and discard
old out of date beliefs. And yes, I really do enjoy kicking back with
friends, and just pass the time in idle chatter. I married an
introvert. That might sound as if it were not a good thing for a full
blown extrovert, but Cathy keeps me from jumping off the tracks and
crashing. We're a good team.
Did I mention that it reached 90 degrees today? We have so few days,
or hot spells, that most folks don't own AC. We open all the sliders,
crank open the windows and plug in two powerful fans. The past couple
of days have been hot and smokey. A heavy smoke fog that irritates
the nose. Up the Coast in British Columbia, the world is on fire.
Since the heat is building from the South, it makes no sense that the
heavy smoke to our North, would drift down here.
Having tramped around in the heavy underbrush, over rugged bumpy
terrain on the western slopes of the Cascades and in the Olympics, I
have nothing but respect for the young men and women who put their
lives on the line to fight these monsters. It is hard and dangerous
work. Isn't it interesting that we don't much care who any of these
fire fighters voted for.
Carl Jarvis
On 8/2/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Carl,
If you keep changing your mind, it isn't apparent. I mean, your basic
positions seem to remain the same. Maybe you change your mind about whether
or not to vote for a Democratic political candidate, and certainly, over
many years, you changed the basic philosophical stance you had. But for as
long as I've known you on this list, it's been pretty easy to predict what
positions you would take. You are very gentle in how you disagree with
people so you almost never alienate anyone or make them angry. You don't
become emotionally invested in the debates we have which is good for your
health and keeps everyone calm, well on this list, anyway. And I guess you
enjoy communicating with others, just for the pleasure of communicating.
But of course, a lot of people are much more emotionally invested in the
debates they have on lists and in the positions they hold.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 9:44 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: (no subject)
True enough, Miriam. I'm guilty as charged, but I don't have an answer.
Hopefully I can become better skilled in explaining my opinions and beliefs
so I am simply extending my views without offending anyone...did I say that?
Maybe what I should be attempting to do is to express my beliefs and
opinions in a way to challenge the curiosity of others. Of course that is a
most difficult thing to do.
We have packed so much emotion onto certain words, it is impossible to use
them without bringing down the roof. When I say that I am an Agnostic, even
Atheists jump on my back because, "You don't have the backbone to take a
stand". When I say that Man Created God to serve Man's purposes, emotions
flare.
People...many people, do not want their deep beliefs challenged. So they
defend by attacking. I spent some effort, even knowing that it was a Fool's
Errand, discussing my beliefs with Mostafa. That is, Mostafa sends out his
articles, and I respond with my thoughts. He has never replied, but he does
continue to keep me on his distribution list. Since I return my opinions to
his entire list, I suspect others are reading what I write. But maybe not,
since none of them reply.
At least not to me.
But I think my point is that I do not get my own self emotionally involved.
I really do not believe that anything I say to this list is going to make
folks sit up and say, "Wow! This Carl Jarvis is sure some great mind!"
Since I change my mind, or alter my position on many issues, the more I read
and think, I find that I have to go back and see what it was I thought five
years ago. Usually it is greatly altered.
I just can't understand why folks can't simply say, "Carl, I disagree with
your remarks on multipleverses," instead of saying, "Carl, you big dumb
piece of Shit! How did your mother ever give birth to such an oversized,
inflated ego?"
Carl Jarvis
On 8/2/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Yes, but you do keep posting messages about how misguided people are
who have religious faith. So although you're not addressing anyone
directly, people who are involved in a religion, are hearing over and
over again how misguided they are. Over the last few days since this
subject has come up, I keep thinking about Ted. Remember how angry
and disgruntled he was when he left this list? Some of us, including
me, were having these political arguments with him. Some list members
were much more direct than I even was, attacking his positions very
strongly. Ted had moderate political views, to the right of many of
our's, but not way to the right. He left the list because he felt
attacked and I remember that he said we were all, "leftist Marxists",
which was certainly not the case. But what was obvious was that he
felt alone and attacked on the list. All that arguing certainly didn't
convince him to change his mind. It may have caused him to shift to
the right. But whatever else it did, it caused him to feel rejected, and
I'll never stop regretting what happened and that he left.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 3:52 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: (no subject)
Abby,
As an avowed Agnostic, I neither attempt to convert others, nor fret
if others attempt to convert me.
I mean, how does one convert another person to Nothing? I can see
myself springing out from the doorway, into the face of some
unsuspecting person, shouting, "Agnosticism sure loves you!" and,
"Repent and let Nothing enter your heart!"
Probably not going to convert too many.
But at the same time, assuming some religious zealot leaps into my
space and demands, "Repent and ask Jesus into your heart!" I simply
answer, "I already did that. He entered into my heart months ago, and
I've not seen hide nor hair of Him since."
Yup, Agnosticism is like a big furry wrap around that protects you
from everything and nothing at all.
And it's light weight and never wrinkles!
Carl Jarvis
On 8/2/17, Abby Vincent <aevincent@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Roger,
I said God wasn't a part of your life. It didn't occur to me that
that would include unwelcome efforts to convert you. I have the same
problem. In recent times, my public appearances include a wheelchair
pusher to get me through malls and grocery stores. More than once my
assistant has had to answer to those accusing him of not being
attentive to my spiritual needs.
Interesting that Jesus told his disciples that blind people are not
being punished for their sins. I do find myself having much in
common with atheists, in particular, their wanting to keep religion
and government out of each other's way. Maybe some day an atheist
will notice the physical evidence of my spiritual status and welcome
me to the fold.
Abby
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Jarvis [mailto:carjar82@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 11:37 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Abby Vincent <aevincent@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: (no subject)
Discussing personal beliefs without becoming personally involved is
tough to do.
Still, I think most on this list are better at it than when I first
joined.
Or maybe it's me who has learned to accept criticism about my Beliefs
without taking personal affront. And yet, it does seem that we all
are better at it.
Each of us are a composite of everything that happened since the day
we were conceived. Any criticism of any piece of that composite can
be seen as a personal attack, or it can be taken as an opportunity to
open a discussion.
How we approach criticism determines whether it becomes a learning
experience or a pissing match. Of course we can be shouted down with
profane curses, but rather than become offended or angered to the
point of returning the curses in triplicate, good judgement should
tell us to simply end the contact.
Furthermore, telling me that I am stupid for believing the lies that
humans are causing climate change, is not an approach that will sway
my opinion.
Do I really care whether some nameless email calls me stupid?
There's nothing to be learned or discussed here. I'll simply delete
you and go forward believing my more learned sources of information.
If I am wrong, the planet will continue as it is. But if I'm right,
and we are contaminating Earth beyond its ability to cleanse itself,
then you will be destroyed along with all of us, and your name
calling will not save one single hair on your head.
But I digress.
We can explore ideas and learn from what others believe. Mostafa has
given me much information, mostly about the sort of person he is, but
also regarding his Faith. Of course, as an Agnostic, I can't really
enter into conversation regarding religion, but I certainly can learn.
As a believer that we humans "created" all our multitude of Gods, I
would be disingenuous if I debated with Mostafa.
But I do believe it is fair to tell him why I cannot ever embrace his
"true"
faith. And I think that mostly, I have done this without putting him
down.
I do wonder if Humans can avoid extinction while believing that Our
God...whichever one we believe in, has absolute truth on his side,
making all other beliefs evil.
In my simple minded way, I truly believe that, "United we Stand:
Divided we fall". We are divided into little nations, each one
better than all others; little religions, each one better than all
others; little racial groups, each one better than all others. And
on and on and on. After thousands of years of this sort of nonsense,
how can we rise to a higher level, find the similarities and teaching
Peace and Respect instead of anger and hatred and violence?
Our very existence depends upon our finding a way through to the
other side.
Carl Jarvis
On 8/1/17, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Ah but Abby, I am an atheist and religion is a part of my life. I
would rather it not be, but theists have been beating me over the
head with it all of my life. I have been screamed at on the street
for going blind because I turned my back on Jesus. I have been
followed around and preached at even though I politely told the
harasser that I was not interested. For the most part these jerks
have been Christian.
In fact, I can say that in person no Muslim has ever tried to beat
me over the head with his religion. But then, I have not known or
encountered very many Muslims and of the few I have encountered I
have been able to actually discuss their religion with them without
their becoming hysterical like so many Christians have. On line,
though, it is a bit different. A few years ago I was browsing Yahoo
groups and came across an announce only group about the Quran. I was
a bit curious and subscribed. It consisted of a daily quote from the
Quran and a commentary on it. After a while my curiosity was
satisfied and I unsubscribed. The next day I found myself subscribed
again. After several attempts to leave the list I contacted the list
owner. I did not hear back until I contacted him several more times.
Finally I got a reply telling me that I must remain subscribed
because he was trying to save me from the fire. Apparently he meant
hell fire. Somehow I finally talked him into letting me go. Does
this behavior sound familiar? Well, I am pretty sure that it was not
Mustafa unless he uses another Arab pseudonym, but interestingly
enough this person was also based in Egypt.
With Mustafa doing basically the same thing I think I see a pattern
developing. My main beef has always been with Christians, but it is
apparent that if I was in a majority Muslim country they would
behave the same way the Christians do and perhaps even worse. As
much as I would like religion to not be a part of my life it is
imposed on me anyway and I got fed up with it many years ago. I do
not back down from them though. If they want to make fools of
themselves I am glad to help them along. And that is why I have been
engaging with Mustafa.
I point out his logical fallacies just to point up how foolish he is
making himself look. I also point out to him how hypocritical he is
being when he complains about others being disrespectful to him. He
is encouraging the disrespect by being disrespectful himself. And,
by the way, when someone screams at a blind person on the street
that god has struck him blind because he turned his back on Jesus
then that person will probably experience some amount of disrespect
too.
On 8/1/2017 6:14 PM, Abby Vincent wrote:
Yes, and that's why I've been silent. My religious beliefs are
part of my identity, my culture. I choose not to defend them or
say why they are reasonable. This is true of other aspects of my
culture.
I once had a working class friend whose parents threw her out of
the house when she turned 18. She was offended by my father
continuing to send me money from beyond the grave.
I find it strange that some of you consider yourselves converts to
atheism. If you don't hold a belief in God, then God isn't a part
of your life, just like Valentines Day isn't a part of mine.
Abby
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bob
Evans
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 8:40 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: [blind-democracy]
I agree with you but I refuse your claim that I am disrespectful
toward Jews and Christians. I criticise ignorance of people not
their beliefs.
I hope you get this.
You may add to your suggestions not to assume things about people
we don't know.
On 8/1/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Please everybody, take all personal attacks, arguments regarding
religion, and posts from other lists, off Blind Democracy. I, and
I'm sure other people, am skipping all emails with the name, Bob
Evans, or Mustafa, and with any subject lines regarding religion.
If Mustafa is disrespectful toward Christians and Jews, so are our
non believing list members who feel impelled to repeat over and
over again their reasons for thinking that religion is nonsense,
and that all believers are stupid and ignorant. One's religious
identity is part of one's personal identity. When, in the guise of
intellectual discussion, you attack an individual's religious
belief, it feels to that person like a personal attack. For
people on the political left, who see themselves as defenders of
humanity and civil liberties, these attacks on other people's
beliefs are unforgiveable. And it is unnecessary to fight back
with stronger or nastier language, when one feels attacked.
That's precisely what Mr. Trump does. Sometimes, silence is the
better part of valor.
Miriam