Carl,
Yes, I had understood all of those things about you except, perhaps, the
importance of your giving up climbing the career ladder, even though you have
mentioned this in previous posts. You've experienced a lot of growth and
change, something that most people haven't.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2017 1:03 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: (no subject)
Miriam,
First, thank you for what I am taking as Kind Words. But when I talk about
changing my beliefs, it's sort of like the Climate Change debate. You need to
see the 82 year overview to get the sense of what I'm talking about. Just
viewing me over a couple of years or so is not going to give a true picture.
In my wild roller coaster life, I have been a sneaky chicken liver, a born
again Bible thumping True Believer, speaking in tongues and being Baptized in
the Holy Spirit, and after a ten year Religious Adventure I became a
Backslider. During those first years of entering the Land of the Blind, I once
again returned to that Missionary fervor, leading the charge against oppressive
state agencies, and proclaiming Truth as told to us by Jacobus tenBroek...and
yes, by the great showman himself, Kenneth Jernigan.
That same absolute certainty that I represented Truth, brought me into Rehab
work. Really, I set out to turn every new blind person into little carbon
copies of Kenneth Jernigan.
And then I went through my Bureaucrat period. I still paid lip service to the
NFB, but turned my attention on climbing up the ladder of success, at least as
successful as government agency work is concerned.
Again, something in me snapped after I became assistant director for field
services, at the Department of Services for the Blind. I think that was my
Agnostic equivalent to the Christian's "Come to Jesus"
experience. For the first time in my life I turned my focus inward.
It was ugly in there. I had spent a life time avoiding looking inward. And it
showed. It's taken me about 30 years to get some sense inside my head, but I
really do alter my opinions and discard old out of date beliefs. And yes, I
really do enjoy kicking back with friends, and just pass the time in idle
chatter. I married an introvert. That might sound as if it were not a good
thing for a full blown extrovert, but Cathy keeps me from jumping off the
tracks and crashing. We're a good team.
Did I mention that it reached 90 degrees today? We have so few days, or hot
spells, that most folks don't own AC. We open all the sliders, crank open the
windows and plug in two powerful fans. The past couple of days have been hot
and smokey. A heavy smoke fog that irritates the nose. Up the Coast in
British Columbia, the world is on fire.
Since the heat is building from the South, it makes no sense that the heavy
smoke to our North, would drift down here.
Having tramped around in the heavy underbrush, over rugged bumpy terrain on the
western slopes of the Cascades and in the Olympics, I have nothing but respect
for the young men and women who put their lives on the line to fight these
monsters. It is hard and dangerous work. Isn't it interesting that we don't
much care who any of these fire fighters voted for.
Carl Jarvis
On 8/2/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Carl,
If you keep changing your mind, it isn't apparent. I mean, your basic
positions seem to remain the same. Maybe you change your mind about
whether or not to vote for a Democratic political candidate, and
certainly, over many years, you changed the basic philosophical stance
you had. But for as long as I've known you on this list, it's been
pretty easy to predict what positions you would take. You are very
gentle in how you disagree with people so you almost never alienate
anyone or make them angry. You don't become emotionally invested in
the debates we have which is good for your health and keeps everyone
calm, well on this list, anyway. And I guess you enjoy communicating with
others, just for the pleasure of communicating.
But of course, a lot of people are much more emotionally invested in
the debates they have on lists and in the positions they hold.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 9:44 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: (no subject)
True enough, Miriam. I'm guilty as charged, but I don't have an answer.
Hopefully I can become better skilled in explaining my opinions and
beliefs so I am simply extending my views without offending anyone...did I
say that?
Maybe what I should be attempting to do is to express my beliefs and
opinions in a way to challenge the curiosity of others. Of course
that is a most difficult thing to do.
We have packed so much emotion onto certain words, it is impossible to
use them without bringing down the roof. When I say that I am an
Agnostic, even Atheists jump on my back because, "You don't have the
backbone to take a stand". When I say that Man Created God to serve
Man's purposes, emotions flare.
People...many people, do not want their deep beliefs challenged. So
they defend by attacking. I spent some effort, even knowing that it
was a Fool's Errand, discussing my beliefs with Mostafa. That is,
Mostafa sends out his articles, and I respond with my thoughts. He
has never replied, but he does continue to keep me on his distribution
list. Since I return my opinions to his entire list, I suspect others
are reading what I write. But maybe not, since none of them reply.
At least not to me.
But I think my point is that I do not get my own self emotionally involved.
I really do not believe that anything I say to this list is going to
make folks sit up and say, "Wow! This Carl Jarvis is sure some great mind!"
Since I change my mind, or alter my position on many issues, the more
I read and think, I find that I have to go back and see what it was I
thought five years ago. Usually it is greatly altered.
I just can't understand why folks can't simply say, "Carl, I disagree
with your remarks on multipleverses," instead of saying, "Carl, you
big dumb piece of Shit! How did your mother ever give birth to such
an oversized, inflated ego?"
Carl Jarvis
On 8/2/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Yes, but you do keep posting messages about how misguided people are
who have religious faith. So although you're not addressing anyone
directly, people who are involved in a religion, are hearing over and
over again how misguided they are. Over the last few days since this
subject has come up, I keep thinking about Ted. Remember how angry
and disgruntled he was when he left this list? Some of us, including
me, were having these political arguments with him. Some list members
were much more direct than I even was, attacking his positions very
strongly. Ted had moderate political views, to the right of many of
our's, but not way to the right. He left the list because he felt
attacked and I remember that he said we were all, "leftist Marxists",
which was certainly not the case. But what was obvious was that he
felt alone and attacked on the list. All that arguing certainly
didn't convince him to change his mind. It may have caused him to
shift to the right. But whatever else it did, it caused him to feel
rejected, and I'll never stop regretting what happened and that he left.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Carl ;
Jarvis
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 3:52 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: (no subject)
Abby,
As an avowed Agnostic, I neither attempt to convert others, nor fret
if others attempt to convert me.
I mean, how does one convert another person to Nothing? I can see
myself springing out from the doorway, into the face of some
unsuspecting person, shouting, "Agnosticism sure loves you!" and,
"Repent and let Nothing enter your heart!"
Probably not going to convert too many.
But at the same time, assuming some religious zealot leaps into my
space and demands, "Repent and ask Jesus into your heart!" I simply
answer, "I already did that. He entered into my heart months ago,
and I've not seen hide nor hair of Him since."
Yup, Agnosticism is like a big furry wrap around that protects you
from everything and nothing at all.
And it's light weight and never wrinkles!
Carl Jarvis
On 8/2/17, Abby Vincent <aevincent@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Roger,
I said God wasn't a part of your life. It didn't occur to me that
that would include unwelcome efforts to convert you. I have the
same problem. In recent times, my public appearances include a
wheelchair pusher to get me through malls and grocery stores. More
than once my assistant has had to answer to those accusing him of
not being attentive to my spiritual needs.
Interesting that Jesus told his disciples that blind people are not
being punished for their sins. I do find myself having much in
common with atheists, in particular, their wanting to keep religion
and government out of each other's way. Maybe some day an atheist
will notice the physical evidence of my spiritual status and welcome
me to the fold.
Abby
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Jarvis [mailto:carjar82@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 11:37 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Abby Vincent <aevincent@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: (no subject)
Discussing personal beliefs without becoming personally involved is
tough to do.
Still, I think most on this list are better at it than when I first
joined.
Or maybe it's me who has learned to accept criticism about my
Beliefs without taking personal affront. And yet, it does seem that
we all are better at it.
Each of us are a composite of everything that happened since the day
we were conceived. Any criticism of any piece of that composite can
be seen as a personal attack, or it can be taken as an opportunity
to open a discussion.
How we approach criticism determines whether it becomes a learning
experience or a pissing match. Of course we can be shouted down
with profane curses, but rather than become offended or angered to
the point of returning the curses in triplicate, good judgement
should tell us to simply end the contact.
Furthermore, telling me that I am stupid for believing the lies that
humans are causing climate change, is not an approach that will sway
my opinion.
Do I really care whether some nameless email calls me stupid?
There's nothing to be learned or discussed here. I'll simply delete
you and go forward believing my more learned sources of information.
If I am wrong, the planet will continue as it is. But if I'm right,
and we are contaminating Earth beyond its ability to cleanse itself,
then you will be destroyed along with all of us, and your name
calling will not save one single hair on your head.
But I digress.
We can explore ideas and learn from what others believe. Mostafa
has given me much information, mostly about the sort of person he
is, but also regarding his Faith. Of course, as an Agnostic, I
can't really enter into conversation regarding religion, but I certainly
can learn.
As a believer that we humans "created" all our multitude of Gods, I
would be disingenuous if I debated with Mostafa.
But I do believe it is fair to tell him why I cannot ever embrace
his "true"
faith. And I think that mostly, I have done this without putting
him down.
I do wonder if Humans can avoid extinction while believing that Our
God...whichever one we believe in, has absolute truth on his side,
making all other beliefs evil.
In my simple minded way, I truly believe that, "United we Stand:
Divided we fall". We are divided into little nations, each one
better than all others; little religions, each one better than all
others; little racial groups, each one better than all others. And
on and on and on. After thousands of years of this sort of
nonsense, how can we rise to a higher level, find the similarities
and teaching Peace and Respect instead of anger and hatred and violence?
Our very existence depends upon our finding a way through to the
other side.
Carl Jarvis
On 8/1/17, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Ah but Abby, I am an atheist and religion is a part of my life. I
would rather it not be, but theists have been beating me over the
head with it all of my life. I have been screamed at on the street
for going blind because I turned my back on Jesus. I have been
followed around and preached at even though I politely told the
harasser that I was not interested. For the most part these jerks
have been Christian.
In fact, I can say that in person no Muslim has ever tried to beat
me over the head with his religion. But then, I have not known or
encountered very many Muslims and of the few I have encountered I
have been able to actually discuss their religion with them without
their becoming hysterical like so many Christians have. On line,
though, it is a bit different. A few years ago I was browsing Yahoo
groups and came across an announce only group about the Quran. I
was a bit curious and subscribed. It consisted of a daily quote
from the Quran and a commentary on it. After a while my curiosity
was satisfied and I unsubscribed. The next day I found myself
subscribed again. After several attempts to leave the list I
contacted the list owner. I did not hear back until I contacted him
several more times.
Finally I got a reply telling me that I must remain subscribed
because he was trying to save me from the fire. Apparently he meant
hell fire. Somehow I finally talked him into letting me go. Does
this behavior sound familiar? Well, I am pretty sure that it was
not Mustafa unless he uses another Arab pseudonym, but
interestingly enough this person was also based in Egypt.
With Mustafa doing basically the same thing I think I see a pattern
developing. My main beef has always been with Christians, but it is
apparent that if I was in a majority Muslim country they would
behave the same way the Christians do and perhaps even worse. As
much as I would like religion to not be a part of my life it is
imposed on me anyway and I got fed up with it many years ago. I do
not back down from them though. If they want to make fools of
themselves I am glad to help them along. And that is why I have
been engaging with Mustafa.
I point out his logical fallacies just to point up how foolish he
is making himself look. I also point out to him how hypocritical he
is being when he complains about others being disrespectful to him.
He is encouraging the disrespect by being disrespectful himself.
And, by the way, when someone screams at a blind person on the
street that god has struck him blind because he turned his back on
Jesus then that person will probably experience some amount of
disrespect too.
On 8/1/2017 6:14 PM, Abby Vincent wrote:
Yes, and that's why I've been silent. My religious beliefs are
part of my identity, my culture. I choose not to defend them or
say why they are reasonable. This is true of other aspects of my
culture.
I once had a working class friend whose parents threw her out of
the house when she turned 18. She was offended by my father
continuing to send me money from beyond the grave.
I find it strange that some of you consider yourselves converts to
atheism. If you don't hold a belief in God, then God isn't a
part of your life, just like Valentines Day isn't a part of mine.
Abby
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bob ;
Evans
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 8:40 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: [blind-democracy]
I agree with you but I refuse your claim that I am disrespectful
toward Jews and Christians. I criticise ignorance of people not
their beliefs.
I hope you get this.
You may add to your suggestions not to assume things about people
we don't know.
On 8/1/17, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Please everybody, take all personal attacks, arguments regarding
religion, and posts from other lists, off Blind Democracy. I, and
I'm sure other people, am skipping all emails with the name, Bob
Evans, or Mustafa, and with any subject lines regarding religion.
If Mustafa is disrespectful toward Christians and Jews, so are
our non believing list members who feel impelled to repeat over
and over again their reasons for thinking that religion is
nonsense, and that all believers are stupid and ignorant. One's
religious identity is part of one's personal identity. When, in
the guise of intellectual discussion, you attack an individual's
religious belief, it feels to that person like a personal
attack. For people on the political left, who see themselves as
defenders of humanity and civil liberties, these attacks on other
people's beliefs are unforgiveable. And it is unnecessary to
fight back with stronger or nastier language, when one feels attacked.
That's precisely what Mr. Trump does. Sometimes, silence is the
better part of valor.
Miriam