A key phrase here, Carl, is unless they try to shove it down my throat.
I don't really try to debate the existence of a god myself unless they
try to shove it down my throat. Let's look at an example. Let's look at
my neighbor and uncle-in-law who died just recently. When I first
mentioned that I called him my neighbor and left out that he was related
because I was afraid that if I mentioned that it would lead me into
discussing things like family history and family relations and things
like that that I didn't want to get into. But Miriam asked if I was
close to my neighbors. A funny thing about that. The way my mind usually
works I would have expected that I would automatically have assumed that
by close she meant physical distance. For whatever reason, though, this
time I automatically assumed that she meant something about social
interactions and so I admitted that they were related to me. Well, as my
relatives I have known them, and him specifically, all my life. Well, to
be precise, off and on for my entire life. I knew him pretty well in my
childhood and into my teens, but then time moved on and circumstances
changed and I didn't interact with him for years. Or at least very
rarely. I do remember once that my car broke down and my mother sent him
to give me a ride. But then due to a real estate deal between him and my
brother he moved in next door and that was quite a few years back now. I
started interacting with him again, but even with his being next door I
don't think I interacted with him as much as I did as a child. Anyway,
here I go getting into the things I already said that I did not want to
get into. Let's just say that I have known him a very long time. Now, I
said earlier that he was a church goer and I would like to think that
now that he is dead he has learned that what comes next is not what he
thought it would be, but, as a matter of fact, he did not find out
anything. He, as a person, ceased to exist. But, still, he attended a
Methodist church his entire life and I have known him my entire life. So
how many conversations do you suppose I have had with him about the
subject of religion? The answer is none, not ever. The reason is that it
just never came up. Oh, on very rare occasions he might have made some
reference to church like saying that he had better hurry up or he would
be late for church or he might have very occasionally told about
something funny that someone said in church. But for the most part, the
very large most part, he just went to church and never mentioned it.
Without his bringing it up I didn't have any reason to bring it up
either. Did he even know about my opinions about religion? I never tried
to keep it secret, but there is a good chance that he didn't. Back when
I was regularly writing letters to the editor to the local newspaper my
grandmother, his mother-in-law seemed to have figured it out from
reading what I wrote and he could have found out that way too, either
from her or from reading the letters, but if he did he never brought it
up and so I never brought it up either. What it comes down to is that he
was one of those people that I used to call on this list secular people
until I was called out on it because people who go to church are not
secular. I changed what I called them. I now think that the appropriate
name is religiously tolerant people. He was religiously tolerant. He
never pushed his religion on anyone and if someone else had a religion
or opinions on religion that differed from his he just accepted it. In
return I can easily tolerate that kind of religious attitude and if I
never had a conversation with him about the subject then I certainly was
tolerating it. In fact, I consider myself a champion of freedom of
religion. That is, no matter how ridiculous it might be I think everyone
has the right to believe whatever they want to believe. I do still think
that religion is a great evil, but on an individual level I think that
if they want to believe in something utterly absurd then that is their
business. Now, as far as I can tell, most people are like my
uncle-in-law. I have known many people throughout my life, and a lot of
them quite well, whose religion or lack of religion I have no idea. I
can know someone for years and not even think of them as an adherent of
a religion and then be surprised that they are. I remember once being at
a Saturday night get-together and someone I had known for years said
that he had better take his leave because he had to get up in the
morning for church. Until that moment I had never even thought of him as
going to church. He had just never mentioned it before. I just wonder if
he had thought that I might attend church. I had never brought it up
with him, so if he regarded church attendance as normal he just might
have assumed that I did. Now again, I am describing religiously tolerant
people and they include both people who do adhere to a religion even if
they don't push it on anyone else and they include atheists too. But
then there is the religiously intolerant crowd, the
shove-it-down-your-throat people. They are an entirely different matter.
It is their intolerance that makes it really hard for me to tolerate
them. For one thing, religious doctrine is so outrageously absurd that
if anyone assumes that I might actually believe in it I consider that to
be an insult to my intelligence. But even then, if their assumption is
simply a mistake and they shut up about it I can overlook it. It is when
they harangue me and follow me around and will not shut up about it that
I start having a real problem with them. I live in the northern reaches
of the bible belt and even if that type is a minority there are still
too many around who jump at the chance to harass me. If all they can do
is scream and preach at me I will tell them off. Unfortunately, after I
tell them off they all too often double down. I told you once about the
preacher who followed me down the street screaming at me telling me that
god had struck me blind because I had turned my back on Jesus. There was
absolutely no talking to him. So I was just trying to escape. If,
however, they can sit still long enough and talk in some kind of
coherent manner I will debate them. I have had some fun doing just that
with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses who come to my door. As I told
Miriam, my reaction to them for insulting my intelligence is, oh Yeah?
Let's just see who the idiot is here. That is what you have observed me
doing with Mostafa and every time he fails to answer one of my arguments
and instead starts throwing insults my point is made. But all in all, I
take your position. If they are not trying to shove it down my throat I
don't worry about it and I don't bring it up either. When they do try to
shove it down my throat, though, that's a different matter.
_________________________________________________________________
J.K. Rowling
“ I mean, you could claim that anything's real if the only basis for believing
in it is that nobody's proved it doesn't exist! ”
― J.K. Rowling
On 12/9/2018 10:47 AM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Actually I spend more time denying that the US Constitution protects
my freedom. I spend some time peddling the idea that our nation has
undergone a quiet coup by the Pentagon. i.e. today I heard that
attempts to audit the Pentagon have ended in a standoff. But there
seems to be at least 100 billion unaccounted dollars that funds
"undeclared wars" by the American Ruling Class.
I spend time suggesting that Working Class American s have been
propagandized to the point where they can no longer tell fact from
fiction.
I have tried hard not to express my anger over those phony religious
soothsayers who work hand in hand with the Ruling Class.
And I do try not to repeat my position that I do not now, nor have I,
for some years, cared whether there is a Higher Power, or not. I am
not the brightest bulb in the knife drawer but I do know that there is
no point in debating a subject that is of no concern. I don't debate
the existence of Santa Claus because whether he is really living at
the North Pole or not, makes no difference. Unless they try to shove
it down my throat, and some still do, I don't care if people choose to
believe in some perfect Hereafter. But I do become angered when a
Ruling Class uses the Fear of an Almighty God as a weapon to keep
their subjects in line, and those same Subjects dare to tell me that I
have been brainwashed and that it is me that is driving wedges and
causing doubt.
We are complex creatures living in a complex universe. Since 1995 I
have written a Christmas letter, which we send to distant relatives
and friends. Yet I don't believe that Jesus was born on December 25.
Nor do I believe that He, and He alone was crucified to somehow save
all mankind, and that He arose from the grave...etc. etc. etc.
But I have 24 "Christmas" letters stacked in front of me. They will
be bound into a booklet as a chronicle of events in the lives of Carl
and Cathy and family and friends, for any in the family who care to
collect such stuff. Does that mean I am trying to continue existing
beyond my physical death? I don't know, nor do I care.
No, for me it is comfortable just continuing to be an Agnostic.
Carl A. Jarvis
(No, the A. stands for Allen, not Agnostic)grin
On 12/8/18, Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> wrote:
You spend a lot of time here expressing an atheist position to be shying
away from the word atheist. Maybe you should just break down and admit
to being one. I told the story once here about how I came to break down
and admit it. It was when I was in a college class and someone told me
that I kept taking atheist positions so why didn't I just call myself an
atheist. I said that, okay, I'm an atheist, and I haven't stopped
calling myself that since. And I had been an atheist, not the agnostic
kind, for about two years at the time. But when I was an agnostic form
of atheist for about four years, from the age of twelve to the age of
sixteen, I had been making the mistake of equating the probability of
there being a god and the probability of there not being a god. In
retrospect I realize that I just had not thought it through. I did not
even realize that I was equating the two propositions. I just thought
that I couldn't prove it one way or another. So I didn't know whether
there was a god or not.
_________________________________________________________________
J.K. Rowling
“ I mean, you could claim that anything's real if the only basis for
believing in it is that nobody's proved it doesn't exist! ”
― J.K. Rowling
On 12/8/2018 5:50 PM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Roger,
I think that earlier I mentioned that I like the quote by Isaac
Asimov. I used to read his Science Article in Galaxy Magazine.
Later, when the Asimov Science Fiction magazine was published in
Braille, I subscribed in order to improve my Braille skills. I was
very disappointed when they cancelled the Braille edition. I still
get the recorded magazine from the Talking Book and Braille Library,
but only glance at it from time to time.
In fact, I do not consider that there is any chance that God
exists...or not. No 50/50 chance.
When I walked away from Christianity, it was because I tired of people
so certain regarding the existence of something they only had second
hand stories as proof. But I don't care what they believe. And
working with so many elderly people who express deep Faith, I say
nothing. Seldom do we discuss religion with our clients, but once in
a while we are pressed into a corner. Of course we could say, "we are
not allowed to discuss religion", but I refuse to be bound by
bureaucratic mumbling, either. So this woman said, "I'm so glad good
Christians have come to see me". I said, "Thank you, but we're not
Christian". She sat silent for a minute, and then said, "But my dogs
love you. If you were not Believers they would not let you enter."
She continued along these lines for some while, not wanting to accept
my word that I was not a Christian. Finally, after going around and
around, I asked her, "Do you believe that God created Adam and Eve,
and put them in the Garden of Eden? Do you believe that Noah built a
boat big enough to put two of every animal on board?"
"Yes", she confirmed. "Yes! God did exactly that." I said, "Then we
have nothing to discuss."
I often think about so many people I've known who feel driven to force
me to accept their beliefs. When I'm in the mood, I try to get them
to accept that there is really a Tooth Fairy". "I know there is a
Tooth Fairy," I assure them, "Because whenever I lost a tooth, a dime
appeared under my pillow in place of the tooth. And my mother told me
that it was the Tooth Fairy. She said she saw it sneak in while I was
sleeping." They act as if I'd lost my mind. How could I honestly
believe such silliness? "well," I tell them, "you expect me to
believe in an invisible God and His buddy the Holy Spirit, and if you
are Catholic, you also tell me that Mother Mary is there to intercede.
And all of this is simply on the second hand word of long dead men who
wrote a book. By the way, did you know that Tinker Bell is real? I
saw her in a movie."
I'm told that I am being silly! I'm assured that Faith is very
complex and sophisticated. I tell them that if God's Word is so
complicated that it takes someone really smart, like them, then I have
to question just how truly wise God is. Don't you think He would make
His Word simple enough that the dumbest of us would understand?
Religion is simply a tool of those in control. It may also be a
shield from the knowledge that we humans understand, our mortality,
something much of animal life does not deal with. But in truth,
believing in God answers nothing, including the proof it would take to
demonstrate God's presence. Hmm, I do believe I'm going around in
circles. That is scary. If I keep it up I might find myself creating
God.
Carl Jarvis
On 12/8/18, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I still think you are falsely assuming an even chance between the
existence or nonexistence of a deity. As for the J. K. Rowling quote,
you might remember that I used to have a quote in my signature line that
I changed every month. I originally started that because there were so
many religious signatures on these blind lists and I wanted to counter
them a bit. But it was getting harder to find a quote that I had not
used and so when I upgraded to Windows 7 and started using Thunderbird
with it I just went back to no signature just because it was easier that
way. But I use the Goodreads site. I have still not quite fully explored
it, though, even though I have now been using it for years. But it turns
out that Goodreads has a feature for looking up genres of literature.
There are a lot of genres and I think Goodreads recognizes more than the
publishers do. Once you open up a page dedicated to a particular genre
you find lists of books in that genre including new books, most popular
books, lists related to the genre and so forth. One of the features is a
couple of quotations related to the genre. So back in mid October I was
looking at the genre page for skepticism and under skepticism quotations
was one by Isaac Asimov that I really liked. So I decided to start
putting a signature line on my emails again and I pasted that Asimov
quote. It so happens that at the bottom of the quotations on that page
was a link to more skepticism quotations. That was one of the features
on Goodreads that I had never explored. This time I clicked it and got a
very long list of quotations. For the most part I liked all of them. So
I kept the Asimov quote through the second half of October and all of
the month of November. Then came December and I thought it was about
time to change my signature. I went back to the skepticism page and
looked at the quotes again. This time the two quotations were different.
I think Goodreads automatically rotates which quotations appear on the
genre pages. I did not bother to shop through the long list of
quotations that I would get if I had clicked the more skepticism
quotations link. After all, I like most of them. I just took the first
one and pasted it into my signature line. It makes a point that I have
to keep making over and over myself. Someone will be beating me over the
head with some matter of superstition and I will ask how they know what
they are telling me is true. I get back, how do you know it isn't? As
usual it is because the probability of it being true is one in infinity.
So Rowling makes my point. There are an infinity of things you could
believe if you believed only because no one has ever proven it to be
false.
_________________________________________________________________
J.K. Rowling
“ I mean, you could claim that anything's real if the only basis for
believing in it is that nobody's proved it doesn't exist! ”
― J.K. Rowling
On 12/8/2018 11:32 AM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Roger,
I enjoyed your quote: J.K. Rowling
“ I mean, you could claim that anything's real if the only basis for
believing in it is that nobody's proved it doesn't exist! ”
Nonetheless, I am an Agnostic, subset or not.
I neither care, nor believe, nor disbelieve in God or the Hereafter.
I know for certain that this life will end one day. While I believe
that will end my awareness, I'll not know for certain until I either
realize that I still exist in some form or another, or that I do not.
I am doing all I can do in order to enjoy what years I will continue
in this life.
Carl Jarvis
On 12/7/18, Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Carl, an atheist is simply a person who does not believe that there is
a
deity. That makes agnosticism a subset of atheism. You are an atheist.
_________________________________________________________________
J.K. Rowling
“ I mean, you could claim that anything's real if the only basis for
believing in it is that nobody's proved it doesn't exist! ”
― J.K. Rowling
On 12/7/2018 11:13 AM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Greetings Mostafa and all Believers and Non Believers
First, I am not an Atheist, but I do consider myself to be Agnostic.
To my associates that means I'm a Lazy Atheist. I prefer to say, an
uncaring Believer in not much of anything at all.
Second, you are going off again, grouping people under a heading,
even
though they are as different as Human Beings can be. I certainly
think of you as being an individual, different from my Muslim
friends,
who are also different from one another.
You suggest that we exist in a "perfect universe". Where did you get
that notion? Look about you. This is not a perfect universe. But
we
do have to live here, imperfect as it is. Comets zoom past our
little
Earth, sometimes slamming into it causing great damage.
And just look out there and notice all the wasted space that could be
turned into farm land, with streams and lakes and little towns where
we might all live in peace. And we are dashing out into the unknown
at speeds we cannot conceive, headed where? Frankly, I would
question
my Faith if I believed that this universe was the best that God could
do.
And just one last thought. Do you truly believe that this Earth is
Perfect? It is part of the "perfect" universe. And yet, we were
created with the need to kill and devour other life in order to
survive. If this is Perfection, I tremble to think of what Heaven
looks like.
Carl Jarvis