Roger,
You interpreted my question correctly. I was asking about social interaction.
My personal reaction to anyone who wishes to convince me about religion, is to
try to close off the conversation as quickly as possible. I don't want to be
harassed, and I know that I won't change anyone's mind. On the trip that I took
to Kenya in 1986, there was an Evangelical couple who were very kind and
helpful to me. The wife and I formed a good relationship. Somewhere in the
midst of that trip, though, she began a serious conversation with me, meant in
the kindest way, because she really liked me, and she wanted to save my soul. I
explained as nicely and gratefully as I could, that I didn't want to have the
conversation, and no more was said about it. That incident did put a bit of
distance between us, but we parted , still being on positive terms with each
other.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey
(Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2018 9:15 PM
To: Carl Jarvis <carjar82@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: responding to Roger
A key phrase here, Carl, is unless they try to shove it down my throat.
I don't really try to debate the existence of a god myself unless they try to
shove it down my throat. Let's look at an example. Let's look at my neighbor
and uncle-in-law who died just recently. When I first mentioned that I called
him my neighbor and left out that he was related because I was afraid that if I
mentioned that it would lead me into discussing things like family history and
family relations and things like that that I didn't want to get into. But
Miriam asked if I was close to my neighbors. A funny thing about that. The way
my mind usually works I would have expected that I would automatically have
assumed that by close she meant physical distance. For whatever reason, though,
this time I automatically assumed that she meant something about social
interactions and so I admitted that they were related to me. Well, as my
relatives I have known them, and him specifically, all my life. Well, to be
precise, off and on for my entire life. I knew him pretty well in my childhood
and into my teens, but then time moved on and circumstances changed and I
didn't interact with him for years. Or at least very rarely. I do remember once
that my car broke down and my mother sent him to give me a ride. But then due
to a real estate deal between him and my brother he moved in next door and that
was quite a few years back now. I started interacting with him again, but even
with his being next door I don't think I interacted with him as much as I did
as a child. Anyway, here I go getting into the things I already said that I did
not want to get into. Let's just say that I have known him a very long time.
Now, I said earlier that he was a church goer and I would like to think that
now that he is dead he has learned that what comes next is not what he thought
it would be, but, as a matter of fact, he did not find out anything. He, as a
person, ceased to exist. But, still, he attended a Methodist church his entire
life and I have known him my entire life. So how many conversations do you
suppose I have had with him about the subject of religion? The answer is none,
not ever. The reason is that it just never came up. Oh, on very rare occasions
he might have made some reference to church like saying that he had better
hurry up or he would be late for church or he might have very occasionally told
about something funny that someone said in church. But for the most part, the
very large most part, he just went to church and never mentioned it.
Without his bringing it up I didn't have any reason to bring it up either. Did
he even know about my opinions about religion? I never tried to keep it secret,
but there is a good chance that he didn't. Back when I was regularly writing
letters to the editor to the local newspaper my grandmother, his mother-in-law
seemed to have figured it out from reading what I wrote and he could have found
out that way too, either from her or from reading the letters, but if he did he
never brought it up and so I never brought it up either. What it comes down to
is that he was one of those people that I used to call on this list secular
people until I was called out on it because people who go to church are not
secular. I changed what I called them. I now think that the appropriate name is
religiously tolerant people. He was religiously tolerant. He never pushed his
religion on anyone and if someone else had a religion or opinions on religion
that differed from his he just accepted it. In return I can easily tolerate
that kind of religious attitude and if I never had a conversation with him
about the subject then I certainly was tolerating it. In fact, I consider
myself a champion of freedom of religion. That is, no matter how ridiculous it
might be I think everyone has the right to believe whatever they want to
believe. I do still think that religion is a great evil, but on an individual
level I think that if they want to believe in something utterly absurd then
that is their business. Now, as far as I can tell, most people are like my
uncle-in-law. I have known many people throughout my life, and a lot of them
quite well, whose religion or lack of religion I have no idea. I can know
someone for years and not even think of them as an adherent of a religion and
then be surprised that they are. I remember once being at a Saturday night
get-together and someone I had known for years said that he had better take his
leave because he had to get up in the morning for church. Until that moment I
had never even thought of him as going to church. He had just never mentioned
it before. I just wonder if he had thought that I might attend church. I had
never brought it up with him, so if he regarded church attendance as normal he
just might have assumed that I did. Now again, I am describing religiously
tolerant people and they include both people who do adhere to a religion even
if they don't push it on anyone else and they include atheists too. But then
there is the religiously intolerant crowd, the shove-it-down-your-throat
people. They are an entirely different matter.
It is their intolerance that makes it really hard for me to tolerate them. For
one thing, religious doctrine is so outrageously absurd that if anyone assumes
that I might actually believe in it I consider that to be an insult to my
intelligence. But even then, if their assumption is simply a mistake and they
shut up about it I can overlook it. It is when they harangue me and follow me
around and will not shut up about it that I start having a real problem with
them. I live in the northern reaches of the bible belt and even if that type is
a minority there are still too many around who jump at the chance to harass me.
If all they can do is scream and preach at me I will tell them off.
Unfortunately, after I tell them off they all too often double down. I told you
once about the preacher who followed me down the street screaming at me telling
me that god had struck me blind because I had turned my back on Jesus. There
was absolutely no talking to him. So I was just trying to escape. If, however,
they can sit still long enough and talk in some kind of coherent manner I will
debate them. I have had some fun doing just that with Mormons or Jehovah's
witnesses who come to my door. As I told Miriam, my reaction to them for
insulting my intelligence is, oh Yeah?
Let's just see who the idiot is here. That is what you have observed me doing
with Mostafa and every time he fails to answer one of my arguments and instead
starts throwing insults my point is made. But all in all, I take your position.
If they are not trying to shove it down my throat I don't worry about it and I
don't bring it up either. When they do try to shove it down my throat, though,
that's a different matter.
_________________________________________________________________
J.K. Rowling
“ I mean, you could claim that anything's real if the only basis for believing
in it is that nobody's proved it doesn't exist! ”
― J.K. Rowling
On 12/9/2018 10:47 AM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Actually I spend more time denying that the US Constitution protects
my freedom. I spend some time peddling the idea that our nation has
undergone a quiet coup by the Pentagon. i.e. today I heard that
attempts to audit the Pentagon have ended in a standoff. But there
seems to be at least 100 billion unaccounted dollars that funds
"undeclared wars" by the American Ruling Class.
I spend time suggesting that Working Class American s have been
propagandized to the point where they can no longer tell fact from
fiction.
I have tried hard not to express my anger over those phony religious
soothsayers who work hand in hand with the Ruling Class.
And I do try not to repeat my position that I do not now, nor have I,
for some years, cared whether there is a Higher Power, or not. I am
not the brightest bulb in the knife drawer but I do know that there is
no point in debating a subject that is of no concern. I don't debate
the existence of Santa Claus because whether he is really living at
the North Pole or not, makes no difference. Unless they try to shove
it down my throat, and some still do, I don't care if people choose to
believe in some perfect Hereafter. But I do become angered when a
Ruling Class uses the Fear of an Almighty God as a weapon to keep
their subjects in line, and those same Subjects dare to tell me that I
have been brainwashed and that it is me that is driving wedges and
causing doubt.
We are complex creatures living in a complex universe. Since 1995 I
have written a Christmas letter, which we send to distant relatives
and friends. Yet I don't believe that Jesus was born on December 25.
Nor do I believe that He, and He alone was crucified to somehow save
all mankind, and that He arose from the grave...etc. etc. etc.
But I have 24 "Christmas" letters stacked in front of me. They will
be bound into a booklet as a chronicle of events in the lives of Carl
and Cathy and family and friends, for any in the family who care to
collect such stuff. Does that mean I am trying to continue existing
beyond my physical death? I don't know, nor do I care.
No, for me it is comfortable just continuing to be an Agnostic.
Carl A. Jarvis
(No, the A. stands for Allen, not Agnostic)grin On 12/8/18, Roger
Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> wrote:
You spend a lot of time here expressing an atheist position to be
shying away from the word atheist. Maybe you should just break down
and admit to being one. I told the story once here about how I came
to break down and admit it. It was when I was in a college class and
someone told me that I kept taking atheist positions so why didn't I
just call myself an atheist. I said that, okay, I'm an atheist, and I
haven't stopped calling myself that since. And I had been an atheist,
not the agnostic kind, for about two years at the time. But when I
was an agnostic form of atheist for about four years, from the age of
twelve to the age of sixteen, I had been making the mistake of
equating the probability of there being a god and the probability of
there not being a god. In retrospect I realize that I just had not
thought it through. I did not even realize that I was equating the
two propositions. I just thought that I couldn't prove it one way or
another. So I didn't know whether there was a god or not.
_________________________________________________________________
J.K. Rowling
“ I mean, you could claim that anything's real if the only basis for
believing in it is that nobody's proved it doesn't exist! ”
― J.K. Rowling
On 12/8/2018 5:50 PM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Roger,
I think that earlier I mentioned that I like the quote by Isaac
Asimov. I used to read his Science Article in Galaxy Magazine.
Later, when the Asimov Science Fiction magazine was published in
Braille, I subscribed in order to improve my Braille skills. I was
very disappointed when they cancelled the Braille edition. I still
get the recorded magazine from the Talking Book and Braille Library,
but only glance at it from time to time.
In fact, I do not consider that there is any chance that God
exists...or not. No 50/50 chance.
When I walked away from Christianity, it was because I tired of
people so certain regarding the existence of something they only had
second hand stories as proof. But I don't care what they believe.
And working with so many elderly people who express deep Faith, I
say nothing. Seldom do we discuss religion with our clients, but
once in a while we are pressed into a corner. Of course we could
say, "we are not allowed to discuss religion", but I refuse to be
bound by bureaucratic mumbling, either. So this woman said, "I'm so
glad good Christians have come to see me". I said, "Thank you, but
we're not Christian". She sat silent for a minute, and then said,
"But my dogs love you. If you were not Believers they would not let you
enter."
She continued along these lines for some while, not wanting to
accept my word that I was not a Christian. Finally, after going
around and around, I asked her, "Do you believe that God created
Adam and Eve, and put them in the Garden of Eden? Do you believe
that Noah built a boat big enough to put two of every animal on board?"
"Yes", she confirmed. "Yes! God did exactly that." I said, "Then
we have nothing to discuss."
I often think about so many people I've known who feel driven to
force me to accept their beliefs. When I'm in the mood, I try to
get them to accept that there is really a Tooth Fairy". "I know
there is a Tooth Fairy," I assure them, "Because whenever I lost a
tooth, a dime appeared under my pillow in place of the tooth. And
my mother told me that it was the Tooth Fairy. She said she saw it
sneak in while I was sleeping." They act as if I'd lost my mind.
How could I honestly believe such silliness? "well," I tell them,
"you expect me to believe in an invisible God and His buddy the Holy
Spirit, and if you are Catholic, you also tell me that Mother Mary is there
to intercede.
And all of this is simply on the second hand word of long dead men
who wrote a book. By the way, did you know that Tinker Bell is
real? I saw her in a movie."
I'm told that I am being silly! I'm assured that Faith is very
complex and sophisticated. I tell them that if God's Word is so
complicated that it takes someone really smart, like them, then I
have to question just how truly wise God is. Don't you think He
would make His Word simple enough that the dumbest of us would understand?
Religion is simply a tool of those in control. It may also be a
shield from the knowledge that we humans understand, our mortality,
something much of animal life does not deal with. But in truth,
believing in God answers nothing, including the proof it would take
to demonstrate God's presence. Hmm, I do believe I'm going around
in circles. That is scary. If I keep it up I might find myself
creating God.
Carl Jarvis
On 12/8/18, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I still think you are falsely assuming an even chance between the
existence or nonexistence of a deity. As for the J. K. Rowling
quote, you might remember that I used to have a quote in my
signature line that I changed every month. I originally started
that because there were so many religious signatures on these blind
lists and I wanted to counter them a bit. But it was getting harder
to find a quote that I had not used and so when I upgraded to
Windows 7 and started using Thunderbird with it I just went back to
no signature just because it was easier that way. But I use the
Goodreads site. I have still not quite fully explored it, though,
even though I have now been using it for years. But it turns out that
Goodreads has a feature for looking up genres of literature.
There are a lot of genres and I think Goodreads recognizes more
than the publishers do. Once you open up a page dedicated to a
particular genre you find lists of books in that genre including
new books, most popular books, lists related to the genre and so
forth. One of the features is a couple of quotations related to the
genre. So back in mid October I was looking at the genre page for
skepticism and under skepticism quotations was one by Isaac Asimov
that I really liked. So I decided to start putting a signature line
on my emails again and I pasted that Asimov quote. It so happens
that at the bottom of the quotations on that page was a link to
more skepticism quotations. That was one of the features on
Goodreads that I had never explored. This time I clicked it and got
a very long list of quotations. For the most part I liked all of
them. So I kept the Asimov quote through the second half of October
and all of the month of November. Then came December and I thought
it was about time to change my signature. I went back to the skepticism
page and looked at the quotes again. This time the two quotations were
different.
I think Goodreads automatically rotates which quotations appear on
the genre pages. I did not bother to shop through the long list of
quotations that I would get if I had clicked the more skepticism
quotations link. After all, I like most of them. I just took the
first one and pasted it into my signature line. It makes a point
that I have to keep making over and over myself. Someone will be
beating me over the head with some matter of superstition and I
will ask how they know what they are telling me is true. I get
back, how do you know it isn't? As usual it is because the probability of
it being true is one in infinity.
So Rowling makes my point. There are an infinity of things you
could believe if you believed only because no one has ever proven
it to be false.
_________________________________________________________________
J.K. Rowling
“ I mean, you could claim that anything's real if the only basis
for believing in it is that nobody's proved it doesn't exist! ”
― J.K. Rowling
On 12/8/2018 11:32 AM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Roger,
I enjoyed your quote: J.K. Rowling “ I mean, you could claim that
anything's real if the only basis for believing in it is that
nobody's proved it doesn't exist! ”
Nonetheless, I am an Agnostic, subset or not.
I neither care, nor believe, nor disbelieve in God or the Hereafter.
I know for certain that this life will end one day. While I
believe that will end my awareness, I'll not know for certain
until I either realize that I still exist in some form or another, or
that I do not.
I am doing all I can do in order to enjoy what years I will
continue in this life.
Carl Jarvis
On 12/7/18, Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Carl, an atheist is simply a person who does not believe that
there is a deity. That makes agnosticism a subset of atheism. You
are an atheist.
_________________________________________________________________
J.K. Rowling
“ I mean, you could claim that anything's real if the only basis
for believing in it is that nobody's proved it doesn't exist! ”
― J.K. Rowling
On 12/7/2018 11:13 AM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Greetings Mostafa and all Believers and Non Believers First, I
am not an Atheist, but I do consider myself to be Agnostic.
To my associates that means I'm a Lazy Atheist. I prefer to
say, an uncaring Believer in not much of anything at all.
Second, you are going off again, grouping people under a
heading, even though they are as different as Human Beings can
be. I certainly think of you as being an individual, different
from my Muslim friends, who are also different from one another.
You suggest that we exist in a "perfect universe". Where did
you get that notion? Look about you. This is not a perfect
universe. But we do have to live here, imperfect as it is.
Comets zoom past our little Earth, sometimes slamming into it
causing great damage.
And just look out there and notice all the wasted space that
could be turned into farm land, with streams and lakes and
little towns where we might all live in peace. And we are
dashing out into the unknown at speeds we cannot conceive,
headed where? Frankly, I would question my Faith if I believed
that this universe was the best that God could do.
And just one last thought. Do you truly believe that this Earth
is Perfect? It is part of the "perfect" universe. And yet, we
were created with the need to kill and devour other life in order to
survive. If this is Perfection, I tremble to think of what Heaven
looks like.
Carl Jarvis