[etni] Fw: Fwd: Defining and non-defining

  • From: joseph barnett <jophrabo@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: "etni.list@xxxxxxxxx" <etni.list@xxxxxxxxx>, Etni <etni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "sharontzu5@xxxxxxxxx" <sharontzu5@xxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 02:55:23 -0700 (PDT)

Lynne Truss
(yes, she of Eats, Shoots and Leaves fame) refers to a number of definitions:
‘Punctuation marks
are the traffic signals of language: they tell us to slow down, notice this,
take a detour and stop.’ And ‘Punctuation is a courtesy designed to help
readers to understand a story without stumbling.’ Quoted from 
http://www.dorisandbertie.com/goodcopybadcopy/2009/09/08/punctuation-why-do-we-need-it-anyway/
That’s about the written word but we should be aware of the
connection between speech and writing.  Sharon, if I’m not mistaken, you 
would agree that we are concerned
with imposing grammatical categories and punctuation rules on the written
representation of spoken sentences, so that a text can be successfully decoded
by the inner ear and ultimately given meaning by the brain. 

There is a ‘rule’ that the relative pronoun can be omitted from a
defining relative clause but must be retained in a non-defining one. I use the
following example in class: 
     The students who lived in Haifa left early.    v    The
students, who lived in Haifa, left early.
In the first, a definingrelative
clause, some of the students did not live in Haifa and in addition only they 
did not leave early. In the
second, a non-defining relative, all the students lived in Haifa and all left
early.  
Furthermore, true to the rule, the second sentence would be ungrammatical 
without the relative:                                       
                                                     
                        * The students, lived in
Haifa, left early.

In your van example, however, as you point out,
something sounds amiss.
 
"The van which I bought three weeks
ago already needs repairs" can be shortened to "The van I bought
three weeks ago already needs repairs" without any apparent loss or change
in meaning. This puts it clearly in the defining category. So how can it be
acceptable if we only haveone van?

A lot depends on your intonation, as you suggest. I’m trying to place your 
original verbal utterance in
a context which I think most English speakers and teachers would find perfectly
natural. 

You bought a van three weeks ago and it is
already in need of repair. You have no other van. You tell someone about the
problem of its needing repair, probably in a complaining voice. He/she probably 
already knows
that you bought a van recently but you use a relative clause to emphasise the 
recentness of the purchase and to remind them of it. We do often seem to define 
things and
people as a sort of memory jog. “You remember my van? You know I told you I
bought a van three weeks ago.” In your sentence the relative clause seems to
modify ‘van’ rather like an adjective before a noun when no defining is
involved. If I say “We bought a red sofa” the word red describes sofa. 
“They
repaired my three-week old van” does not imply that I have other vans unless 
you use marked intonation. In addition, it seems that there is an element of 
ambiguity in the use of the relative clause as the interlocutor may or may not 
take it as a definition, depending on whether he/she remembers.  

Does this help? That was just some brainstorming
and I’m sure there’s lot more to it.

Joe Barnett
 



On Friday, November 1, 2013 9:48 AM, ETNI list <etni.list@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
 
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sharon Tzur <sharontzu5@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Defining and non-defining

"Can it be said that the same defining relative clause can be also be
non-defining, depending on the context. For example, "The van which I
bought three weeks ago already needs repairs"  sounds more like non
defining to me."

My opinion: if you have several vans, then the clause is defining
because you are explaining which of the vans you are talking about. If
you just have one van..then the clause is non-defining. Use
punctuation to make the distinction. If it is non-defining, then the
relative clause must be preceded and followed by commas. Some purists
prefer to use "that" for defining clauses.


What about this  "A few friends whom I met at the new
school are coming to the party"?

My opinion: I'm not as sure on this one...I think it sounds like
non-defining...perhaps because  I'm bothered by "a few" if used as
defining, but I can't explain why it doesn't ring right to me. For a
defining clause I׳d prefer, "The friends that I met at the new school
are coming to the party." You have many friends and are defining which
of them you are talking about.

If it is non defining, it sounds as if those few friends are the only
ones coming to the party.

To teach the distinction, I use the following:
Teachers that work hard should be well paid.
Teachers, who work hard, should be well paid.

In sentence one you define which teachers should be well paid. In
sentence two, you are saying that all teachers should be well paid,
and adding a comment that they all work hard.


Yours,

Sharon Tzur
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