I'm sorry but I cannot accept this argument. it is not up to you to decide what the Oral Bagrut tests. The English Inspectorate has decided that the Oral Bagrut is composed of 40% interview, 60% Project. If you believe that the requirements of the Oral Bagrut should be changed, fine. Make your opinion known and perhaps you will have some impact. But you do not have a right to decide on your own what those requirements should be and change them in accordance with your personal beliefs and preferences. That's anarchy. Maxine Tsvaigrach -----Original Message----- From: etni-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:etni-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ask_Etni Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 7:04 AM To: ETNI Subject: [etni] Fw: RE: Testing Oral bagrut and thank you Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: rafaella beigel - rafibeigel@xxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Testing Oral bagrut and thank you Sharon Thank you for those words and hopefully the teacher who proudly told me that she will award a grade of 40% to any child who has not done his project will realise that it is the CHILDS' ORAL ABILITY which is to be tested and that, if they, as examiners. were true professionals , they would be able to determine the oral ability of a student even if he were to spend the entire exam talking about his pet rabbit,the weather or the phone book. You cannot seriously suggest that a two minute pre-prepared blurb about a project should be the deciding factor in assessing linguistic accuracy or ability. "Doing it a bit Brown" as Bertie Wooster would say. (of course that is English Literature, but that is another ball game!) R Eleanor wrote: >I wish to comment on the legalities of the debate of testing, projects etc. The Ministry does hire us and as Sharon has pointed out -- we do it (oral testing) out of a sense of obligation. Many years I have found my form in the back of my planbook --waiting to be signed and mailed -- and just never mailed it. The whole "Ktav Minui" thing is rather recent. I am a Ministry employee as a teacher. I went on strike -- this too was "against my employer" and all of us who were striking "went against our employers." That is what labor sanctions are all about. But the Ministry had a way to penalize me: to not pay me for the hours I didn't work -- and indeed, we were forced to do replace the lost hours. The problem here is that WE are not going to be penalized: our pupils are. The same way, when nurses strike -- patients suffer, when the electric company goes on strike, we ALL suffer. If no one suffers -- strikes, sanctions -- don't work. Since so many of us are concerned about our obligations to our pupils more than our obligations to our families and ourselves -- we did projects and left those who didn't HANGING IN THE WIND. I find the question of honesty regarding the projects, the testing and all that has been said, very problematic to say the least. I personally don't see it as so black and white nor do I think teachers who are trying to salvage the situation are sneaky, cheating liars. I felt that the comments sounded a bit sanctimonious and acrimonious. I have been very uncomfortable with the tenor of the discussion. Sharon Tsur's words of wisdom and harmony were heartening. I hope her efforts provide some solution On ETNI we usually help one another -- let's continue to do so, even when we disagree. A pupil taking the oral bagrut is being tested on his English proficiency-- not on his teacher's work ethic. Whether the Oral Exam he undergoes is the one intended, we must ask ourselves --how is his English? HE is being tested, not the teacher. His grade on the exam will not determine if he really passed his driving test, if he really is read to fly a plane, drill a cavity in my tooth or do neurosurgery. It should determine if he can speak English well. If a tester gives an alternative exam, despite the MOE being the one to pay, are the tester, the teacher and the poor pupils all sliding down the slippery slope of dishonesty? Is this evidence of an absolute lack of values or a distortion of the truth? And if it were your son or daughter being tested and about to forfeit 60 points? Does it change the cards in the deck? ----------------------------------------------- ** The ETNI Rag ** http://www.etni.org/etnirag/ Much more than just a journal ** Etni homepage - http://www.etni.org or - http://www.etni.org.il ** ** for help - ask@xxxxxxxx ** ** to post to this list - etni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------- ** The ETNI Rag ** http://www.etni.org/etnirag/ Much more than just a journal ** Etni homepage - http://www.etni.org or - http://www.etni.org.il ** ** for help - ask@xxxxxxxx ** ** to post to this list - etni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** -----------------------------------------------