Hi Linda! You are confusing two [certainly related] things: language competence and accent/pronunciation, the latter being only one [albeit important] component of the former. A person can have an excellent ear for languages, develop pronunciation that makes him/her indistinguishable from a native speaker - but at the same time have a small vocabulary, poor grammar and spelling, use primitive syntactic constructions and be totally unaware of subtle differences in the meaning of near-synonyms (what we call subcategorizational restrictions) which would result in forming wrong collocations, etc. The reverse is also possible (and quite frequent). No-one will mistake me for a native speaker by my accent - but in written English I can probably lure most of my occasional correspondents into believing English is my L1. Do you agree? :) Best - Lev 2010/2/23 Ask Etni <ask@xxxxxxxx>: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Linda Dayan - lindadayan7@xxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: RE: spik inglish > > > Hi, Doron, > > First, I liked your reply to the person who dropped the literature > course. > > However, I do not agree that a non-native English speaker cannot achieve > "full native competence", which I understand to mean that an Israeli can > never talk like a native speaker. There are two English teachers in my > school - neither of whom has ever lived abroad -whose spoken English sounds > as American as mine if not more so (I am a native speaker, by the way). > There is such a thing as an ear for language (many times connected with and > ear for music) and so teachers can hope that some pupils will, indeed, reach > this high standard. > > Linda > > > Doron wrote: >> Another point in the "spik Inglish" wars: since it is impossible for >> non-native speakers to achieve full native competence, it is wrong to hold >> them to a native-speaker standard. We should talk, precisely, of >> "competence" in L1, L2, L3, etc., as indeed the European Union, among >> others, suggests. Laurie will never be mistaken for a native-speaking >> Bedouin; she can, with work, reach pretty good L3 competence, and be >> congratulated for doing so. The same is true of Barry's Russian and >> Ethiopian pupils, and my Arabic speakers - all hope to achieve >> "sufficiently >> good" competence in their L3 - English. To expect more is worse than >> unrealistic, it is unfair and disempowering. > > ----------------------------------------------- > ** The ETNI Rag ** > http://www.etni.org/etnirag/ > Much more than just a journal > > ** Etni homepage - http://www.etni.org > or - http://www.etni.org.il ** > ** for help - ask@xxxxxxxx ** > ** to post to this list - etni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** > ----------------------------------------------- > > ----------------------------------------------- ** The ETNI Rag ** http://www.etni.org/etnirag/ Much more than just a journal ** Etni homepage - http://www.etni.org or - http://www.etni.org.il ** ** for help - ask@xxxxxxxx ** ** to post to this list - etni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** -----------------------------------------------