[jawsscripts] Re: no longer StringArray operator function availability.
- From: "Geoff Chapman" <gch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 02:17:01 +1000
ah. ok. right. thanks for that doug.
that's helpful to know.
I'm starting with no such background as that.
Been a guitar player most of my career, using computer to sequence midi
stuff for like I dunno, 15 years I guess. but not programming code and
dealing with logic, the way you simply must be able to do to be any kind of
a scripter eh.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Lee" <doug.lee@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 2:11 AM
Subject: [jawsscripts] Re: no longer StringArray operator function
availability.
> When I took my first scripting job, I was not a seasoned JAWS
> scripter, but I was a seasoned programmer, having worked for five
> years as a programmer in a small mainstream company doing database
> apps and such. When I took that job, I was fresh out of college with
> a degree in Computer Science, having also held a few paid and nonpaid
> short-term positions programming while going to college.
>
> On Mon, Jul 05, 2010 at 01:58:14AM +1000, Geoff Chapman wrote:
> my goodness! well, all this sounds just waaaay too overwhelming for me to
> start
> taking onboard right now. But, thanks everyone for the more expert
> knowledge tips and thoughts around this.
> It's sure extremely interesting to hear what world the professionals are
> walking in.
>
> Complying with Doug's dictums below, of course requires that one actually
> can, do as
> directed! at present I have enough struggles just making the logic work
for
> the first-order stuff I feel has to be done to make the thing drivable,
let
> alone planning for changes and having time/skill to write
> error-condition-catching code, for
> unexpected things the user may do that I can't even as yet perceive!
> Fun fun!
>
> <grin.>
>
>
> All just shows me I've a lot yet to learn and grasp before I'll be half
way
> compitent at any of this. But, I intend to shelve all this advice for
now,
> and wait until I'm a more seasoned scripter before I start thinking this
is
> manditory/essential to doing the job. else I'll just implode and won't get
> finished at
> all eh!
>
> ok, hmmm, let me ask people this then. Doug, for example, it's well known
> that you do this full time for a living, and have a company that you
operate
> to serve the needs of scripting for pripriatory products on job sites
around
> the country presumably.
>
> Did you not take on your first scripting job, until you were well and
truly
> versed and able to do, all that you intimate below, ought to be a regular
> part of completing any professional project?
>
> just curious I guess, how many people have done what I guess I'm kinda
> doing? which is learning so much of this stuff, in the actual environment
of
> a real project/job to finish? it sure isn't the most comfortable way to be
> learning, never mind the fact that of course, I have to spend many many
more
> hours sussing things and stumbling through stuff
> than I can possibly charge for, which becomes a bit of an ethical juggling
> act in itself.
>
> Geoff c.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doug Lee" <doug.lee@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 8:29 AM
> Subject: [jawsscripts] Re: StringArray operator function availability? or
> lack thereof. thoughts?
>
>
> > Part of planning is planning for plan changes. :)
> >
> > In cabling, pull two or three when you need just one.
> >
> > In programming, handle all error conditions and unexpected
> > possibilities, write code that can be expanded, modularize things when
> > you can, and expect that the first and second way you do something
> > won't work a year from now.
> >
> > I know that's all vague, and of course, idealistic, but keeping things
> > like this in mind is always a good plan.
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 02, 2010 at 04:06:20PM -0500, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
> > I agree with everything that was said about how hard it can be to stick
> > to a plan. It's my experience though that the most successful long term
> > projects, and the easiest to support and maintain, are those where a lot
> > of time is spent on planning, requirements and design. Obviously, it's a
> > software shop's job to get applications out the door on a schedule and
> > not generate plans and designs, so there will be lots of pressure to
> > deviate from the best laid plans of mice and men. However, when these
> > deviations are understood and taken after careful consideration, the
> > detrimental effect to the long term success of the project can more
> > easily be managed. I guess my point is that just because it's hard to do
> > and isn't always going to be possible doesn't mean you don't try to do
> > it at all. My experience has been that the worst projects to work on are
> > where there's little to no effort to have a plan, requirements or a
> > design and anarchy just leads to code that's impossible to maintain or
> > work on.
> >
> > There's also the whole methodology of agile programming for environments
> > where requirements and designs do change over the course of the project.
> > My take on agile programming is that it's meant to break the project up
> > into smaller pieces where the software engineering principles can be
> > followed for each stage and the transition from stage to stage allows
> > for a structured way to handle requirements and design changes. Agile
> > programming doesn't mean you don't have any process or design, which
> > I've heard some programmers claim.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Christopher
> > chaltain@xxxxxxxxx
> >
> >
> > On 7/2/2010 10:39 AM, Soronel Haetir wrote:
> > > Like any other skill it's something that takes effort to develop.
> > >
> > > Something else to keep in mind, my experience is that that the plan is
> > > followed for about 33% of the project and then the customer asks for
> > > changes (small at first) that whittle away at the ability to follow
> > > the plan. By the time you reach 75% the plan is only a distant memory
> > > and new stuff is getting added haphazardly and a lot of praying occurs
> > > over the source control server.
> > >
> > > Detailed planning of that sort is great
> > > (1) if you're able to do it right (which probably means you've done it
> > > wrong at least once),
> > > (2) If the system you're working on has a single job, no matter how
> > > complicated, that really has no way to expand to handle more tasks
> > > (think space shuttle control code here)
> > > or (3) If you are damned lucky, don't expect it to happen again.
> > >
> > > On 7/1/10, Geoff Chapman<gch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > >
> > >> ah. thanks Don. I'll keep in mind never to join one of these
> "professional
> > >> develop shops," of which you speak then!<grin.>
> > >>
> > >> I don't seem to be very adept yet, at analysis and pre-coding
thought.
> it
> > >> evades/eludes me somehow.
> > >> Don't quite know wy?
> > >>
> > >> Still, writing questions to this list somehow helps me to think
through
> my
> > >> issues better. Jus so's you're all aware, if you can believe it, I
> don't
> > >> actually end up posting everything I sit down to post to the list!
some
> > >> things never make it to air, coz by the tkime I've spent xx time
> writing the
> > >> whole jolly thing up, my brain has better processed it and I can
often,
> > >> though not always, see at least the semblance of a solution to the
> problem I
> > >> couldn't see before writing it all out.
> > >>
> > >> Remind me never to get a job as any kind of annalist though
eh?<grin.>
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Donald Marang"<donald.marang@xxxxxxxxx>
> > >> To:<jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 11:49 PM
> > >> Subject: [jawsscripts] Re: StringArray operator function
availability?
> or
> > >> lack thereof. thoughts?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> That is quite normal. That is one reason professional development
> shops
> > >>> require lots of thought and analysis before ever writing code.
> > >>>
> > >>> Don Marang
> > >>>
> > >>> --------------------------------------------------
> > >>> From: "Geoff Chapman"<gch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 3:41 AM
> > >>> To:<jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >>> Subject: [jawsscripts] StringArray operator function availability?
or
> lack
> > >>> thereof. thoughts?
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> Mighty scripters.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Well, since as you're all painfully aware by now,<grin,> I've
> somehow
> > >>>> found
> > >>>> myself jumping into the land of scripting with both feet clad in
> horridly
> > >>>> large and ahem, somewhat
> > >>>> rather smelly army boots, hahaha, anywayz, because of this,
> > >>>> I've kinda picked right up on usage of the whole new jaws11 array
> thang.
> > >>>> I've found them very useful I must say, for getting through a whole
> bunch
> > >>>> of
> > >>>> jobs, but I have couple queeries surrounding them, that I wanted to
> put
> > >>>> before you more seasoned scripters/programmers, who might also be
up
> to
> > >>>> speed on usage of the new Array functions?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> But who also have experience in their usage across a wider milieu
> than
> > >>>> just
> > >>>> the jaws scripting language?
> > >>>> I thought this might give me a more informed platform from which to
> > >>>> wish/expect from fs, the fulfillment of my inner desires regarding
> > >>>> arrays,
> > >>>> and what functions we might one day expect
> > >>>> to be provided to operate on them.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I'll just mention one today, but, for example, it seems to me that
> many
> > >>>> of
> > >>>> the functions used to operate on plain string variables, of which
as
> you
> > >>>> know there are many, won't work on the individual slots of
> stringArray
> > >>>> variables. This is rather a shame in my view, but for all I know,
> it's
> > >>>> normative?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I guess it's maybe understandable, in that they weren't built for
> arrays.
> > >>>> And I realize that array's are different animals than plain single
> > >>>> strings.
> > >>>> But, I guess my question is, is it reasonable for me to want/expect
> that
> > >>>> some day, they might be?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Because, the way things are now, it rather forces one to have to
> > >>>> learn/adopt
> > >>>> new strategies/work-arounds, for accomplishing some of the tasks
> which
> > >>>> historically would've been performed by specific builtin functions
> > >>>> designed
> > >>>> to do the jobs rather elegantly directly on plain string variables,
> but,
> > >>>> as
> > >>>> I say, not on string Arrays.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> My case In point today, for example, is, say, usage of the
> stringIsBlank
> > >>>> function.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> if, for example, I'm needing to grab text from the screen, and
store
> it
> > >>>> in,
> > >>>> say 24 slots of a single dimension StringArray.
> > >>>> But then, I'm wanting to perform functionality akin to what I
> previously
> > >>>> would've used StringIsBlank to do, if I'd been using the old simple
> > >>>> individual string variables.
> > >>>> Because, I presume, that if I have a line in the midst of a while
> loop
> > >>>> cranking through each slot of a global previously declared
> > >>>> StringArray, something like:
> > >>>> var
> > >>>> String MyString,
> > >>>> int iCount
> > >>>> ; crank through the loop of the array and perform stuff on each
slot
> > >>>> let iCount = 1
> > >>>>
> > >>>> while iCount<= 24 ; the amount of slots I have
> > >>>> if gsaMyStringArray[iCount]> "" then
> > >>>> ; do stuff
> > >>>> else
> > >>>> Do other stuff
> > >>>> let iCount = iCount + 1 ; do it for all slots in the Array
> > >>>> EndIf ; string is reasonably blank check
> > >>>> EndWhile
> > >>>>
> > >>>> this would presumably only flag as true, if there were absolutely
no
> > >>>> space
> > >>>> or tab characters in that slot of the StringArray. Whereas, if I
> > >>>> understand
> > >>>> this correctly, the StringIsBlank function, knows that spaces and
> Tabs
> > >>>> are
> > >>>> not generally spoken output fodda, and so will return true even if
> the
> > >>>> string contains those, but no other normatively speakable
> information?
> > >>>> Is this correct?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I guess I'm using this practical example, as a template to kinda
> wanna
> > >>>> ask
> > >>>> about this in a kind of generic way, in asking for thoughts about
> > >>>> potential
> > >>>> caveats/work-arounds with using Arrays, from those of you with a
ton
> more
> > >>>> programming experience than me?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hmmm, I mean, I presume, that I could make the while loop just do a
> > >>>> little
> > >>>> bit more work, by doing a let statement on my stringArray slot, to
> assign
> > >>>> it
> > >>>> to a plain stringVariable, just to perform my StringIsBlank check
on
> it.
> > >>>> hmm.
> > >>>> Hadn't thought of that before.
> > >>>> maybe like:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> let MyString = gsaMyStringArray[iCount]
> > >>>> if StringIsBlank (myString) then
> > >>>>
> > >>>> but, hmmm, well I guess tha'ts not that hard really eh.
> > >>>> well is that the preferred/expected work-around in utilizing
arrays,
> that
> > >>>> one is expected to do? and is perfecdtly reasonable to do?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> or might we expect that some more elegant array operations
builtins,
> > >>>> might
> > >>>> be provided us if asked for, in due time? or am I totaly up a tree
> and
> > >>>> need
> > >>>> my head read for crazy thinking again?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> actually in sitting down to write this question, and then actually
> you
> > >>>> know,
> > >>>> having to provide code to elucidate it, I've actually learned
> something
> > >>>> today, hmm, again,
> > >>>> about myself, which I guess I
> > >>>> share in case it might help other newby scripters.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> And actually I have discovered this a couple of times, but, well, I
> > >>>> somehow
> > >>>> haven't yet built it into my normative coding toolbox of how to
solve
> > >>>> problems.! for it seems that when I actually have to sit down and
> explain
> > >>>> and write out the whole jolly problem or question I'm wanting to
ask,
> and
> > >>>> try and provide realWorld example code so as you don't all think
I'm
> just
> > >>>> expecting a total spoonFeedingb job the whole time, Sometimes I
> actually
> > >>>> find I can come up with an answer, or, as in this case, that the
> question
> > >>>> sounds a whole lot less difficult or annoying to solve, than I
first
> > >>>> thought! hmmm. this is kinda wierd though. Or in learning to
program
> > >>>> land,
> > >>>> is this kind of thing normative maybe?
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> thanks for any further comments/thoughts though that anyone would
> like to
> > >>>> add, either to the beginning or end of this lengthy post!
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Geoff c.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> __________???
> > >>>>
> > >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> > >>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/jawsscripts
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>> __________???
> > >>>
> > >>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> > >>> http://www.freelists.org/list/jawsscripts
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >> __________???
> > >>
> > >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> > >> http://www.freelists.org/list/jawsscripts
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > __________???
> >
> > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > http://www.freelists.org/list/jawsscripts
> >
> > --
> > Doug Lee, Senior Accessibility Programmer
> > SSB BART Group - Accessibility-on-Demand
> > mailto:doug.lee@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
> > "While they were saying among themselves it cannot be done,
> > it was done." --Helen Keller
> > __________???
> >
> > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > http://www.freelists.org/list/jawsscripts
> >
>
> __________???
>
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> http://www.freelists.org/list/jawsscripts
>
> --
> Doug Lee, Senior Accessibility Programmer
> SSB BART Group - Accessibility-on-Demand
> mailto:doug.lee@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
> "While they were saying among themselves it cannot be done,
> it was done." --Helen Keller
> __________�
>
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> http://www.freelists.org/list/jawsscripts
>
__________�
View the list's information and change your settings at
http://www.freelists.org/list/jawsscripts
Other related posts: