[vicsireland] Re: debate on VICS and E.G.M
- From: "GERARD SHANAHAN" <gershan@xxxxxx>
- To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 17:26:28 +0100
HiCearbhall,
I appreciate your warm encouragement for vics into the future and I whole
heartedly join you in singing from the same hymn sheet. I think the best
way to show an analogy of what I origionally wanted to portray would be a
friend who got an iiphone and who wanted to check out the web capabilities
went to the vics website to check out the content and experiment in using
the links with their iphone. Now I understand that some people are
fanatical about their i products, regarding the desktop and laptop as old
hat but this illustrates the inter-conactivity between the old and new
worlds of technology thus assists the learning curve for those lesser
mortals like myself.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cearbhall O'Meadhra" <omeadhrac@xxxxxxx>
To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:11 PM
Subject: [vicsireland] Re: debate on VICS and E.G.M
Gerard and everyone else!
I believe that VICS should remain. It has tremendous resources in the
members who have expertise in a wide range of skills relating to computer
usage, coding and advocacy.
Members might like to know that the VICS web site is hosted free by
Blacknight. The full resources of Blacknight including support and a wide
range of web tools are available. so that Unix, MySQL PHP Perl HTML XML
services are all available free. This is an invaluable support to blind
programmers who wish to experiment in developing web-based applications of
any sort. I believe that this should be retained.
I believe the VICS list is important as members can raise an issue when they
need to. It is also free but does need to be managed by a volunteer as we
are doing at the moment.
Gerard put his finger on a very important aspect of VICS. It exists and many
people relate to it. I see no problem with VICS lying in wait until there is
energy enough to drive a new issue.
All the best,
Cearbhall
M: 0833323487 t: (01) 2864623 em: omeadhrac@xxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of GERARD SHANAHAN
Sent: 09 April 2014 17:35
To: vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [vicsireland] Re: debate on vics and E.G.M
At this point, I'd like to thank everyone who took part in my requested
debate in support of the continuation of vics. Kerie, I apoligise if you
were under the impression that it was a personal attack, it wasn't I was
just trying to flush out answers to why such a decision came out of left
field. The main theme of all the emails in defence of your position is lack
of response from the list. Your response to my suggestions: "Completely
agree with what's being said here.
If you are wanting to take over the position of chair of VICS that is
great, and leaves you then wide open to implement all you have said," - it
appears you have mixed me up with somebody else, my name is Gerard not Adolf
Heil Hitler and such strategies could only be accomplished with the joint
assistance of a committee and their individual co-operation.
People who have read my recent email know that I am a pro active person
believing that stimulation is the only way to get a reaction alas the lack
of contributions to the debate means that I am incorrect in my assumptions
even though I have been involved in setting up a voluntary group that has
survived twenty years myself. That besides, I appreciate the responses by
members of the committee who explained the general position.
In relation to the society not being successful in part as it duplicates
certain aspects of National agencies, this can be said to be true but we are
not 9-5pm people, we are not constrained by setting premises, which seems to
prevent official organisations from pushing the boundries. I am appreciative
of Martin's confirmation that a separate email address could be used in the
event of voting, as it could be a useful tool in gauging interest on
decision making.
In regard to the website: The website is a useful tool, in that it could
contain what is already there and a great deal more. For example: at a
basic level if there was a free source typing tutor which could be
downloaded that could be used for newly blind users, tutorials on Win 8, ms
ribbon, basic PC housekeeping WITH LINKS TO free anti virus software. Then
on a higher level tutorials on office suite, audacity, voip software,
project to engage users with skype(aspirationally it could provide a live
learning platform). Of course there are the vagaries of different running
systems which would create stumbling blocks. A section on Apple phones and
pads plus useful apps. Tutorials on Facebook and Twitter . Of course,
nailing people down to contribute is as you state the crux. At least leave
the site up for an indefinite period in the event a member wishes to develop
it.
Website marketing: Presently, we have a limited membership and the only way
to make it into a mass market aimed towards the general visually impaired
and blind community is to find new sources of people to log on to the
website and join the list. One such source would be the Féach organisation
which is the group of families with vip children. As in the past we have
had queries from individuals in this grouping a presentation at one of their
conferences would draw interest. Professionals are important but we can
provide practical and useful assistance being of the same ilk. Similarly,
contacting other such user groups and publicising our existence would be
helpful. If people don't know you exist, they can't join you.
Finally, I appreciate Tim's reply to Ed. At least the mailing list will be
a resource as long as it exists. It was a pity I could not have got more
people to contribute to the debate and it seems that the result for April
26th is a "Faith accompli" . I have made my appeal thus people know my
position, There is no need for me to be present at the requiem.
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Culhane <mailto:tim.j.culhane@xxxxxxxxx>
To: vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 4:10 PM
Subject: [vicsireland] Re: debate on vics and E.G.M
Hi Ed,
I certainly see no reason why the list could not continue without
Vics.
It costs nothing and its strength is the pool of knowledge made up
by its members.
Tim
From: vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ed Harper
Sent: 08 April 2014 16:01
To: vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [vicsireland] Re: debate on vics and E.G.M
Could I make a suggestion. If vics decided to windup activities
other than the mailing list, could that be kept open and anyone interested
in helping other computer users could at least remain as members of the
list. Living where i do I have never attended an A or Egm, but I have been
to a tech day at UCC in Cork and had invaluable help from the list and also
learned a lot, without even asking questions through reading others emails.
I am 95% certain I won't make the meeting because I won't have cover on the
farm, so can't leave home, but that doesn't show a lack of interest.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: Kerie Doyle <mailto:kerie.doyle1987@xxxxxxxxx>
To: vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2014 12:16 PM
Subject: [vicsireland] Re: debate on vics and E.G.M
Martin has summed up the view point of the committee
fantastically. Couldn't have written it better myself.
I would also say at this point, following on from Martin's
email, that if only the committee are in attendance at the meeting then it
will not bode well for the future of vics, so something to think about.
Thanks
Kerie
Sent from my iPhone
On 7 Apr 2014, at 09:49 a.m., Martin Fleming
<martinfleming01@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Gerry,
I would be in support of Kerie just like Cearbhall
especially in view of the issue of a physical meeting. I have provided
responses to your questions shown at the end of each point but please
remember that these are my views and thoughts and not necessarily the views
of others on the committee. I don't know if anyone else will provide
answers to these points and the lengthy Email but I hope this provides
enough to consider.
1. Regarding the meeting, Kerie, I hear what you
are saying but I strongly request that you consider my suggestion. I don't
know the numbers of members but I'm sure that if you review the membership,
you will note that there are a large contingent of people who have or do
not attend regularly, on the basis that they feel the effort involved in
making the meeting i.e. trains, taxis a few hours in Dublin would be too
great an effort. This is no reflection on you or any committee members just
that they have no aspirations to be on committees but would be willing to
work with the committee on projects on an email basis.I'd paraphrase this in
saying that varying levels of vision and mobility either enhance or hinder
individuals - People please don't be insulted as this is an observation.
Response:
I would agree that there is a large number of
members that do not attend meetings or events but I am not convinced you
have any basis for the reason because it isnot purely to do with just the
EGM/AGM type meetings it extends to involvement or attendance to events
being run. The lack of this attendance and interest is why Kerie put that
message out originally asking for ideas of what the membership wants so that
perhaps the committee could better serve its members with events or such
like in other areas of the country as well as just Dublin. So if your
arguement was correct then there would have been more response to the
original request with suggestions to host things in other areas etc. I
myself am in Mayo and do find that journey myself inconvenient for the
general reason that everything, not only VICS events, are centred and held
in Dublin as if that was the centre of the universe, but if there is
something I really wish to attend or in this case something that is very
important to me then I will make that extra effort.
2. I mentioned the website, and Cearbhall
explained that it was an experiment by a sub
committee. O.K. but isn't it a basic task of the committee to keep such
tasks updated as part of housekeeping if the capability is available to it?
Response:
There has been several discussion on this and how to
progress with this especially as the maintainance/development side of it, I
believe, is quite complicated involving some knowledge of the paticlular web
development tool, so with that in mind it depends on how skilled the
committee or the person assigned that task is for implementing features and
facilities on the site. Perhaps as was previously mentioned the site should
just purely be a basic one giving just the sufficient information on the
society and how to contact them etc. but just to clarify it has been
discussed.
3. As a matter of point to the mailing list, Most
queries are answered by other members but I did notice a request for
information on windows 8 and menus on webpages recently which didn't
receiveany response. I was tempted to reply giving my thoughts which were
unexperienced due to only experiencing win 8 by chance and being an X.P.
user myself.Shouldn't there be some mechanism by which the knowledgable
members of the committee would intervene and provide info.
Response:
You are making assumptions that all members on the
committee have all the knowledge on all topics which is not necessarily true
and also an unfair responsibility to place on them to be experts in all
areas of IT and computing. The society is made up of computing
professionals and general users that would not have certain knowledge and so
it is therefore fair to say that if the society is made up in this way that
the committee is equally made up in that way. I am not saying that there
wasn't anyone on the list who could have provided the answer but perhaps
there wasn't either, however it again just shows the lack of responses and
interest in certain aspects of the group if there was the people out there.
4. You stated that you emailed the list at the
beginning of the year for ideas but nothing came out of it. Shouldn't there
be some kind of consensis among the committee at the beginning of the year
on areas to be covered or projects to develop during the year. There is a
diverse range of abilities among the list members whom I'm sure would work
with committee inspired projects, if they were approached.
Response:
You are correct in your assumption of the discussion
at the beginning of a committee's year that there are topics and areas that
might be looked at but as was stated with the meetings and events respons it
is not easy to lead an organisation unless you know what is of interest to
it's members because if a committee just goes off and does what it thinks is
worth doing then if not wanted by the membership can create the impression
that the committee don't care about what the other members want from the
society. So it is fine the committee having ideas and be involved in
ongoing projects but to have input from the membership and involvement at,
as already mentioned, events and meetings would mean that the committee
would at least field they have something to lead and that they aren't just
flogging a dead horse.
5. Is the basis of the computer society eroded so
much that it is easier to such the web for answers than to develop what we
have. Simple answer Yes, so what is the point, such an attitude
could have been taken years ago. success comes with
effort.
Response:
Yes, "success comes with effort" but it is not that
the effort hasn't been put in to it over the past years but again you can
only work with what you have and if that isn't anything or much then it is
hard to progress and become successful. There are loads of places to get
answers on the web now even in the relm of assistive tech but again the
committee can only fill a need if they no what that need is, so if the
society is to continue then the committee needs to no what is needed by the
members. Another point to a successful organisation is that it needs to be
able to evolve and change but again this is not possible unless needs of the
group are identified and the way things are perhaps run are known such as if
VICS runs just training events or do they become more social, or a mix of
the two and how that is all structured in conjunction to the actual needs of
the group too.
6. Observing the responses to date, I believe that
the numbers involved have reduced in the society. A committee has to
consider where to canvas for new sources of members, did the committee
consider this point?
Response:
The short and straightforward answer to this is Yes.
The trend that these questions are following are a lot of assumptions and as
someone who hasn't been involved in the committee and meetings you have no
idea of what has or hasn't been discussed and it is wrong and unfair of you
to make assumptions and judgements of such a type. Perhaps if you stood for
the committee and experienced the situation from that side then you may have
a better appreciation of how things are. As they say if you want to
understand someone then walk a mile in their shoes.
7. What relationships or association has the
society built up with other groups, industry user groups ovr the years and
what is the position presently.
Response:
I am unsure of all the contacts/connection built up
so can't give you a great answer to this, as I am only an ordinary committee
member, but I can tell you that connection with the British Computer
Association of the Blind (BCAB) has been established and I mention this
particular organisation as they are the closest group to what we would be.
Despite this connection we have to take in to consideration that they are a
UK group and so any dealings with them would not make a lot of difference to
our everyday running and development.
8. In my reading of the constitution, you have to
contact members at least 3 weeks previous to any meeting. Besides putting a
notice on the mailing list, Did the committee or you email all the members
of vicsireland individually to ensure that they are aware of the meeting?
Response:
I can not answer for the Membership Secretary or the
Chair but I am sure that they will have done what they could to have
provided notification to the members. It was in good time and as you are
such an advocate of the list and how much people use or rely on it then if
the list was the only place this was announced then this should have been
adequate for the majority.
9. I've read the constitution and it covers a great
deal. My original observation in that I believe that a committee should be
the driving force rather than leaving it to the general membership is
endorsed by the wording of the constitution:
2 AIMS & OBJECTIVES
list of 6 items
1. To meet the needs of visually impaired
people in the area of general computer access.
2. To provide support to those who are new to
computers.
3. To encourage employers to hire visually
impaired employees enabled by new technology.
4. To promote and where possible, assist in the
development of adaptive technology, and to encourage
developers of new software
and hardware to ensure accessibility.
5. To act in an advisory capacity to bodies
seeking to provide access to electronic data.
6. To advise on, and promote the development of
fully accessible websites.
There is plenty of topics that would keep any
committee busy. Can you provide any updates on recent developments under
any of the headings?
Response:
We again come back to the same point that yes a
committee is there to lead but it can only do so by knowing what is needed.
At no stage has it been implied that the running of the society is going to
be left to the members but the committee needs to be able to run something.
In relation to the points/avenues that could be looked at, as you suggest,
above you have to remember that some of these are now undertaken by other
organisations such as NCBI and other bodies. I am not going to address each
point individually as this reply is turning in to a novel already, but the
committee again can look at some of these areas that may not be addressed by
other organisations/groups but they will need to know if that is what the
membership want from the society because it could drastically change the
group for some people resulting in a larger membership fall out, if what you
suggested earlier is correct that there seems to be a drop in membership.
9. The constitution states that: 2. Nominations
may be made for persons not
present at the meeting, on receipt of written
approval from the nominee. This in itself opens the door to having a
meeting on line as if a person is nominated and accepted while not being
there, they are being confirmed as part of the working group i.e. committee
Response:
This does not give justification for an online or
Email meeting as it depends on one's interpretation. I would say that this
is an indication that the committee is able to receive proposals with
nominations/seconders and the same for people looking to stand for the
committee by Email if they can't attend, and they can all be taken in to
account that day and voted on by the attendies on the day but it doesn't
mean it can all happen online. If it was a commercial organisation with
shareholders then when they hold thir AGM you would recieve an invitation to
the meeting and if you couldn't attend then you would have a nominee form
with the people standing or you can provide authorization of vote to the
Chair to decide on your behalf as a proxy vote. So again there is no reason
why a physical meeting is out of the question.
10. Cearbhall suggest a project in developing the
open source software i.e. programs like Open office, mozilla, linox,
N.V.D.A. This is a very interesting idea. personally I wouldn't be great
with the ligistics involved, we could develop such a package on the basis
that it could be applied to the lower cost tablets for assisting individuals
getting accustomed to technology.
Response:
As has been expressed before by several people this
is a good and constructive suggestion which if the society continues could
be looked in to further as an option.
11. What would people's attitude be to paid
advertising on the website to create a finance stream. The funds created
could be used to finance accessibility awards for design competitions for
accessible software or rewarding companies who make their websites
accessible. School competitions to develop accessible apps for USE BY BLIND
PEOPLE OR BLIND USERS TO DEVELOP APPS. This thought comes from the recent
email from Ronan
Response:
Some good ideas here too and in the long list of
points/comments raised until now probably some of the most constructive
suggestions for input to how we as a organisation can survive and
change/develop. If VICS does continue then I am sure there are some very
good ideas here, however the only thing I would say about the web ads idea
is that it will require someone who has web analytic skills and optimisation
skills too so this maybe or may not be possible depending on the skill set
of the group/committee.
12. So, If I nominate and get a seconder for
someone who might not be there on the day Will it be accepted?
Response:
As a short and my own answer to this, not
representative of the whole committee, would be yes I am sure it would be.
13. Damien suggested to Kerie that he would help
with an agendafor the meetingAlas Kerie says that there is only 1 item to be
discussed: there are twelve items above to be considered.
Response:
You have made 12 items however as you can see
throughout these there is a common theme of input and involvement by the
membership for the current or future committees to know the needs and wants
of the membership. If we use a computing analogy then if you input nothing
to a computer don't expect anything to be output, and if you provide limit
input then it will provide you with a limit result. I have been both a
software designer and tester and in both situations if you don't have enough
input then the results are limitted. Without all specifications and
requirements from the customer the developer doesn't know what to produce,
and won't produce the correct application for the client. If you are only
told to test for certain things then you will miss many other things and the
results will not be complete. So although the committee is to run the
organisation it needs to know what members want from them and how/what they
want from the organisation. Kerie is still correct that there is one main
topic to discuss and that is the future of VICS but from this discussion,
using some of the constructive input given, will determine this future and
development of the group.
14. Martin pointed out to me that in the event of
voting a separate email would have to be used for all the votes. I think
this would be fine, once the motion is in the header people can reply to
the motion with yes or no. Alternatively, an email containing the motions
can be forwarded to the individuals on the list and they can put their
preferred option in quotes beside it.
Response:
I can not answer for the Chair or the rest of the
committee on this point but if proposals/motions are raised and voted on by
members who can't attend via Email then I'm sure this will be fine, but
again it is no excuse for people not to attend the physical meeting if at
all possible otherwise this is just a cope out for any proper involvement.
This method could be used but it doesn't mean that the committee or the
specific committee member assigned to this task can be swamped by everyone
just because they don't want to attend because if it turns out to be that
the committee are the only ones to make the physical meeting then it will
also still give the impression that noone is interested/borthered enough
about VICS to make the effort.
This has been a long reply providing my view on
things and not necessarily the view of the whole committee but I hope that I
have been able to answer some of the points raised here and that I have
given a reasonable representation for the committee. I would however thank
you for being thorough in this Email, despite it's length, as it has at
least shown some passion of one member of VICS in what they want from the
organisation and it's future. It is just a shame that it hasn't sparked any
more interest from other members of VICS to contribute to this
thread/discussion, and that being said then this poses the question whether
an online voting/meeting would have worked anyway due to the lack of
responses.
Kind regards
Martin
From: vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of GERARD SHANAHAN
Sent: 06 April 2014 20:23
To: vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [vicsireland] debate on vics and E.G.M
Hi All,
Back again to try and whet your appetites for a
debate on the topics of having the meeting online and the future of
vicsireland website and list.
1. Regarding the meeting, Kerie, I hear what you
are saying but I strongly request that you consider my suggestion. I don't
know the numbers of members but I'm sure that if you review the membership,
you will note that there are a large contingent of people who have or do
not attend regularly, on the basis that they feel the effort involved in
making the meeting i.e. trains, taxis a few hours in Dublin would be too
great an effort. This is no reflection on you or any committee members just
that they have no aspirations to be on committees but would be willing to
work with the committee on projects on an email basis.I'd paraphrase this in
saying that varying levels of vision and mobility either enhance or hinder
individuals - People please don't be insulted as this is an observation.
2. I mentioned the website, and Cearbhall
explained that it was an experiment by a sub
committee. O.K. but isn't it a basic task of the committee to keep such
tasks updated as part of housekeeping if the capability is available to it?
3. As a matter of point to the mailing list, Most
queries are answered by other members but I did notice a request for
information on windows 8 and menus on webpages recently which didn't
receiveany response. I was tempted to reply giving my thoughts which were
unexperienced due to only experiencing win 8 by chance and being an X.P.
user myself.Shouldn't there be some mechanism by which the knowledgable
members of the committee would intervene and provide info.
4. You stated that you emailed the list at the
beginning of the year for ideas but nothing came out of it. Shouldn't there
be some kind of consensis among the committee at the beginning of the year
on areas to be covered or projects to develop during the year. There is a
diverse range of abilities among the list members whom I'm sure would work
with committee inspired projects, if they were approached.
5. Is the basis of the computer society eroded so
much that it is easier to such the web for answers than to develop what we
have. Simple answer Yes, so what is the point, such an attitude
could have been taken years ago. success comes with
effort.
6. Observing the responses to date, I believe that
the numbers involved have reduced in the society. A committee has to
consider where to canvas for new sources of members, did the committee
consider this point?
7. What relationships or association has the
society built up with other groups, industry user groups ovr the years and
what is the position presently.
8. In my reading of the constitution, you have to
contact members at least 3 weeks previous to any meeting. Besides putting a
notice on the mailing list, Did the committee or you email all the members
of vicsireland individually to ensure that they are aware of the meeting?
9. I've read the constitution and it covers a great
deal. My original observation in that I believe that a committee should be
the driving force rather than leaving it to the general membership is
endorsed by the wording of the constitution:
2 AIMS & OBJECTIVES
list of 6 items
1. To meet the needs of visually impaired
people in the area of general computer access.
2. To provide support to those who are new to
computers.
3. To encourage employers to hire visually
impaired employees enabled by new technology.
4. To promote and where possible, assist in the
development of adaptive technology, and to encourage
developers of new software
and hardware to ensure accessibility.
5. To act in an advisory capacity to bodies
seeking to provide access to electronic data.
6. To advise on, and promote the development of
fully accessible websites.
There is plenty of topics that would keep any
committee busy. Can you provide any updates on recent developments under
any of the headings?
9. The constitution states that: 2. Nominations
may be made for persons not
present at the meeting, on receipt of written
approval from the nominee. This in itself opens the door to having a
meeting on line as if a person is nominated and accepted while not being
there, they are being confirmed as part of the working group i.e. committee
10. Cearbhall suggest a project in developing the
open source software i.e. programs like Open office, mozilla, linox,
N.V.D.A. This is a very interesting idea. personally I wouldn't be great
with the ligistics involved, we could develop such a package on the basis
that it could be applied to the lower cost tablets for assisting individuals
getting accustomed to technology.
11. What would people's attitude be to paid
advertising on the website to create a finance stream. The funds created
could be used to finance accessibility awards for design competitions for
accessible software or rewarding companies who make their websites
accessible. School competitions to develop accessible apps for USE BY BLIND
PEOPLE OR BLIND USERS TO DEVELOP APPS. This thought comes from the recent
email from Ronan
12. So, If I nominate and get a seconder for
someone who might not be there on the day Will it be accepted?
13. Damien suggested to Kerie that he would help
with an agendafor the meetingAlas Kerie says that there is only 1 item to be
discussed: there are twelve items above to be considered.
14. Martin pointed out to me that in the event of
voting a separate email would have to be used for all the votes. I think
this would be fine, once the motion is in the header people can reply to
the motion with yes or no. Alternatively, an email containing the motions
can be forwarded to the individuals on the list and they can put their
preferred option in quotes beside it.
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