[vicsireland] Re: debate on vics and E.G.M
- From: "GERARD SHANAHAN" <gershan@xxxxxx>
- To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 17:29:02 +0100
Thanks Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Culhane
To: vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 8:22 AM
Subject: [vicsireland] Re: debate on vics and E.G.M
Hi Gerard,
I certainly wouldn't say that the decision of the meeting on 26th April is a
fait accompli.
I for one want Vics to continue, and I know that others do also.
I suppose the bigger question is how Vics can change and evolve in order to
meet the needs of visually impaired technology users in Ireland today.
Hopefully the EGM will provide an open forum for the exchange of ideas and
thoughts on this matter.
Since,as you have shown over the last week, you also have lots of ideas as to
how Vics can survive, I'd urge you to try and make the meeting in person if at
all possible.
Tim
From: vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of GERARD SHANAHAN
Sent: 09 April 2014 17:35
To: vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [vicsireland] Re: debate on vics and E.G.M
At this point, I'd like to thank everyone who took part in my requested
debate in support of the continuation of vics. Kerie, I apoligise if you were
under the impression that it was a personal attack, it wasn't I was just
trying to flush out answers to why such a decision came out of left field. The
main theme of all the emails in defence of your position is lack of response
from the list. Your response to my suggestions: "Completely agree with what's
being said here.
If you are wanting to take over the position of chair of VICS that is
great, and leaves you then wide open to implement all you have said," - it
appears you have mixed me up with somebody else, my name is Gerard not Adolf
Heil Hitler and such strategies could only be accomplished with the joint
assistance of a committee and their individual co-operation.
People who have read my recent email know that I am a pro active person
believing that stimulation is the only way to get a reaction alas the lack of
contributions to the debate means that I am incorrect in my assumptions even
though I have been involved in setting up a voluntary group that has survived
twenty years myself. That besides, I appreciate the responses by members of the
committee who explained the general position.
In relation to the society not being successful in part as it duplicates
certain aspects of National agencies, this can be said to be true but we are
not 9-5pm people, we are not constrained by setting premises, which seems to
prevent official organisations from pushing the boundries. I am appreciative of
Martin's confirmation that a separate email address could be used in the event
of voting, as it could be a useful tool in gauging interest on decision making.
In regard to the website: The website is a useful tool, in that it could
contain what is already there and a great deal more. For example: at a basic
level if there was a free source typing tutor which could be downloaded that
could be used for newly blind users, tutorials on Win 8, ms ribbon, basic PC
housekeeping WITH LINKS TO free anti virus software. Then on a higher level
tutorials on office suite, audacity, voip software, project to engage users
with skype(aspirationally it could provide a live learning platform). Of
course there are the vagaries of different running systems which would create
stumbling blocks. A section on Apple phones and pads plus useful apps.
Tutorials on Facebook and Twitter . Of course, nailing people down to
contribute is as you state the crux. At least leave the site up for an
indefinite period in the event a member wishes to develop it.
Website marketing: Presently, we have a limited membership and the only way
to make it into a mass market aimed towards the general visually impaired and
blind community is to find new sources of people to log on to the website and
join the list. One such source would be the Féach organisation which is the
group of families with vip children. As in the past we have had queries from
individuals in this grouping a presentation at one of their conferences would
draw interest. Professionals are important but we can provide practical and
useful assistance being of the same ilk. Similarly, contacting other such user
groups and publicising our existence would be helpful. If people don't know
you exist, they can't join you.
Finally, I appreciate Tim's reply to Ed. At least the mailing list will be a
resource as long as it exists. It was a pity I could not have got more people
to contribute to the debate and it seems that the result for April 26th is a
"Faith accompli" . I have made my appeal thus people know my position, There
is no need for me to be present at the requiem.
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Culhane
To: vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 4:10 PM
Subject: [vicsireland] Re: debate on vics and E.G.M
Hi Ed,
I certainly see no reason why the list could not continue without Vics.
It costs nothing and its strength is the pool of knowledge made up by its
members.
Tim
From: vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ed Harper
Sent: 08 April 2014 16:01
To: vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [vicsireland] Re: debate on vics and E.G.M
Could I make a suggestion. If vics decided to windup activities other
than the mailing list, could that be kept open and anyone interested in helping
other computer users could at least remain as members of the list. Living
where i do I have never attended an A or Egm, but I have been to a tech day at
UCC in Cork and had invaluable help from the list and also learned a lot,
without even asking questions through reading others emails. I am 95% certain
I won't make the meeting because I won't have cover on the farm, so can't leave
home, but that doesn't show a lack of interest.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: Kerie Doyle
To: vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2014 12:16 PM
Subject: [vicsireland] Re: debate on vics and E.G.M
Martin has summed up the view point of the committee fantastically.
Couldn't have written it better myself.
I would also say at this point, following on from Martin's email, that if
only the committee are in attendance at the meeting then it will not bode well
for the future of vics, so something to think about.
Thanks
Kerie
Sent from my iPhone
On 7 Apr 2014, at 09:49 a.m., Martin Fleming <martinfleming01@xxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Hi Gerry,
I would be in support of Kerie just like Cearbhall especially in view
of the issue of a physical meeting. I have provided responses to your
questions shown at the end of each point but please remember that these are my
views and thoughts and not necessarily the views of others on the committee. I
don't know if anyone else will provide answers to these points and the lengthy
Email but I hope this provides enough to consider.
1. Regarding the meeting, Kerie, I hear what you are saying but I
strongly request that you consider my suggestion. I don't know the numbers of
members but I'm sure that if you review the membership, you will note that
there are a large contingent of people who have or do not attend regularly, on
the basis that they feel the effort involved in making the meeting i.e. trains,
taxis a few hours in Dublin would be too great an effort. This is no
reflection on you or any committee members just that they have no aspirations
to be on committees but would be willing to work with the committee on projects
on an email basis.I'd paraphrase this in saying that varying levels of vision
and mobility either enhance or hinder individuals - People please don't be
insulted as this is an observation.
Response:
I would agree that there is a large number of members that do not
attend meetings or events but I am not convinced you have any basis for the
reason because it isnot purely to do with just the EGM/AGM type meetings it
extends to involvement or attendance to events being run. The lack of this
attendance and interest is why Kerie put that message out originally asking for
ideas of what the membership wants so that perhaps the committee could better
serve its members with events or such like in other areas of the country as
well as just Dublin. So if your arguement was correct then there would have
been more response to the original request with suggestions to host things in
other areas etc. I myself am in Mayo and do find that journey myself
inconvenient for the general reason that everything, not only VICS events, are
centred and held in Dublin as if that was the centre of the universe, but if
there is something I really wish to attend or in this case something that is
very important to me then I will make that extra effort.
2. I mentioned the website, and Cearbhall
explained that it was an experiment by a sub committee. O.K. but
isn't it a basic task of the committee to keep such tasks updated as part of
housekeeping if the capability is available to it?
Response:
There has been several discussion on this and how to progress with this
especially as the maintainance/development side of it, I believe, is quite
complicated involving some knowledge of the paticlular web development tool, so
with that in mind it depends on how skilled the committee or the person
assigned that task is for implementing features and facilities on the site.
Perhaps as was previously mentioned the site should just purely be a basic one
giving just the sufficient information on the society and how to contact them
etc. but just to clarify it has been discussed.
3. As a matter of point to the mailing list, Most queries are answered
by other members but I did notice a request for information on windows 8 and
menus on webpages recently which didn't receiveany response. I was tempted to
reply giving my thoughts which were unexperienced due to only experiencing win
8 by chance and being an X.P. user myself.Shouldn't there be some mechanism by
which the knowledgable members of the committee would intervene and provide
info.
Response:
You are making assumptions that all members on the committee have all
the knowledge on all topics which is not necessarily true and also an unfair
responsibility to place on them to be experts in all areas of IT and computing.
The society is made up of computing professionals and general users that would
not have certain knowledge and so it is therefore fair to say that if the
society is made up in this way that the committee is equally made up in that
way. I am not saying that there wasn't anyone on the list who could have
provided the answer but perhaps there wasn't either, however it again just
shows the lack of responses and interest in certain aspects of the group if
there was the people out there.
4. You stated that you emailed the list at the beginning of the year
for ideas but nothing came out of it. Shouldn't there be some kind of
consensis among the committee at the beginning of the year on areas to be
covered or projects to develop during the year. There is a diverse range of
abilities among the list members whom I'm sure would work with committee
inspired projects, if they were approached.
Response:
You are correct in your assumption of the discussion at the beginning
of a committee's year that there are topics and areas that might be looked at
but as was stated with the meetings and events respons it is not easy to lead
an organisation unless you know what is of interest to it's members because if
a committee just goes off and does what it thinks is worth doing then if not
wanted by the membership can create the impression that the committee don't
care about what the other members want from the society. So it is fine the
committee having ideas and be involved in ongoing projects but to have input
from the membership and involvement at, as already mentioned, events and
meetings would mean that the committee would at least field they have something
to lead and that they aren't just flogging a dead horse.
5. Is the basis of the computer society eroded so much that it is
easier to such the web for answers than to develop what we have. Simple answer
Yes, so what is the point, such an attitude
could have been taken years ago. success comes with effort.
Response:
Yes, "success comes with effort" but it is not that the effort hasn't
been put in to it over the past years but again you can only work with what you
have and if that isn't anything or much then it is hard to progress and become
successful. There are loads of places to get answers on the web now even in
the relm of assistive tech but again the committee can only fill a need if they
no what that need is, so if the society is to continue then the committee needs
to no what is needed by the members. Another point to a successful
organisation is that it needs to be able to evolve and change but again this is
not possible unless needs of the group are identified and the way things are
perhaps run are known such as if VICS runs just training events or do they
become more social, or a mix of the two and how that is all structured in
conjunction to the actual needs of the group too.
6. Observing the responses to date, I believe that the numbers
involved have reduced in the society. A committee has to consider where to
canvas for new sources of members, did the committee consider this point?
Response:
The short and straightforward answer to this is Yes. The trend that
these questions are following are a lot of assumptions and as someone who
hasn't been involved in the committee and meetings you have no idea of what
has or hasn't been discussed and it is wrong and unfair of you to make
assumptions and judgements of such a type. Perhaps if you stood for the
committee and experienced the situation from that side then you may have a
better appreciation of how things are. As they say if you want to understand
someone then walk a mile in their shoes.
7. What relationships or association has the society built up with
other groups, industry user groups ovr the years and what is the position
presently.
Response:
I am unsure of all the contacts/connection built up so can't give you a
great answer to this, as I am only an ordinary committee member, but I can tell
you that connection with the British Computer Association of the Blind (BCAB)
has been established and I mention this particular organisation as they are the
closest group to what we would be. Despite this connection we have to take in
to consideration that they are a UK group and so any dealings with them would
not make a lot of difference to our everyday running and development.
8. In my reading of the constitution, you have to contact members at
least 3 weeks previous to any meeting. Besides putting a notice on the mailing
list, Did the committee or you email all the members of vicsireland
individually to ensure that they are aware of the meeting?
Response:
I can not answer for the Membership Secretary or the Chair but I am
sure that they will have done what they could to have provided notification to
the members. It was in good time and as you are such an advocate of the list
and how much people use or rely on it then if the list was the only place this
was announced then this should have been adequate for the majority.
9. I've read the constitution and it covers a great deal. My
original observation in that I believe that a committee should be the driving
force rather than leaving it to the general membership is endorsed by the
wording of the constitution:
2 AIMS & OBJECTIVES
list of 6 items
1. To meet the needs of visually impaired
people in the area of general computer access.
2. To provide support to those who are new to
computers.
3. To encourage employers to hire visually
impaired employees enabled by new technology.
4. To promote and where possible, assist in the
development of adaptive technology, and to encourage developers of new
software
and hardware to ensure accessibility.
5. To act in an advisory capacity to bodies
seeking to provide access to electronic data.
6. To advise on, and promote the development of
fully accessible websites.
There is plenty of topics that would keep any committee busy. Can you
provide any updates on recent developments under any of the headings?
Response:
We again come back to the same point that yes a committee is there to
lead but it can only do so by knowing what is needed. At no stage has it been
implied that the running of the society is going to be left to the members but
the committee needs to be able to run something. In relation to the
points/avenues that could be looked at, as you suggest, above you have to
remember that some of these are now undertaken by other organisations such as
NCBI and other bodies. I am not going to address each point individually as
this reply is turning in to a novel already, but the committee again can look
at some of these areas that may not be addressed by other organisations/groups
but they will need to know if that is what the membership want from the society
because it could drastically change the group for some people resulting in a
larger membership fall out, if what you suggested earlier is correct that there
seems to be a drop in membership.
9. The constitution states that: 2. Nominations may be made for
persons not
present at the meeting, on receipt of written approval from the
nominee. This in itself opens the door to having a meeting on line as if a
person is nominated and accepted while not being there, they are being
confirmed as part of the working group i.e. committee
Response:
This does not give justification for an online or Email meeting as it
depends on one's interpretation. I would say that this is an indication that
the committee is able to receive proposals with nominations/seconders and the
same for people looking to stand for the committee by Email if they can't
attend, and they can all be taken in to account that day and voted on by the
attendies on the day but it doesn't mean it can all happen online. If it was a
commercial organisation with shareholders then when they hold thir AGM you
would recieve an invitation to the meeting and if you couldn't attend then you
would have a nominee form with the people standing or you can provide
authorization of vote to the Chair to decide on your behalf as a proxy vote.
So again there is no reason why a physical meeting is out of the question.
10. Cearbhall suggest a project in developing the open source
software i.e. programs like Open office, mozilla, linox, N.V.D.A. This is a
very interesting idea. personally I wouldn't be great with the ligistics
involved, we could develop such a package on the basis that it could be applied
to the lower cost tablets for assisting individuals getting accustomed to
technology.
Response:
As has been expressed before by several people this is a good and
constructive suggestion which if the society continues could be looked in to
further as an option.
11. What would people's attitude be to paid advertising on the website
to create a finance stream. The funds created could be used to finance
accessibility awards for design competitions for accessible software or
rewarding companies who make their websites accessible. School competitions to
develop accessible apps for USE BY BLIND PEOPLE OR BLIND USERS TO DEVELOP APPS.
This thought comes from the recent email from Ronan
Response:
Some good ideas here too and in the long list of points/comments raised
until now probably some of the most constructive suggestions for input to how
we as a organisation can survive and change/develop. If VICS does continue
then I am sure there are some very good ideas here, however the only thing I
would say about the web ads idea is that it will require someone who has web
analytic skills and optimisation skills too so this maybe or may not be
possible depending on the skill set of the group/committee.
12. So, If I nominate and get a seconder for someone who might not be
there on the day Will it be accepted?
Response:
As a short and my own answer to this, not representative of the whole
committee, would be yes I am sure it would be.
13. Damien suggested to Kerie that he would help with an agendafor the
meetingAlas Kerie says that there is only 1 item to be discussed: there are
twelve items above to be considered.
Response:
You have made 12 items however as you can see throughout these there is
a common theme of input and involvement by the membership for the current or
future committees to know the needs and wants of the membership. If we use a
computing analogy then if you input nothing to a computer don't expect anything
to be output, and if you provide limit input then it will provide you with a
limit result. I have been both a software designer and tester and in both
situations if you don't have enough input then the results are limitted.
Without all specifications and requirements from the customer the developer
doesn't know what to produce, and won't produce the correct application for the
client. If you are only told to test for certain things then you will miss
many other things and the results will not be complete. So although the
committee is to run the organisation it needs to know what members want from
them and how/what they want from the organisation. Kerie is still correct that
there is one main topic to discuss and that is the future of VICS but from this
discussion, using some of the constructive input given, will determine this
future and development of the group.
14. Martin pointed out to me that in the event of voting a separate
email would have to be used for all the votes. I think this would be fine,
once the motion is in the header people can reply to the motion with yes or no.
Alternatively, an email containing the motions can be forwarded to the
individuals on the list and they can put their preferred option in quotes
beside it.
Response:
I can not answer for the Chair or the rest of the committee on this
point but if proposals/motions are raised and voted on by members who can't
attend via Email then I'm sure this will be fine, but again it is no excuse for
people not to attend the physical meeting if at all possible otherwise this is
just a cope out for any proper involvement. This method could be used but it
doesn't mean that the committee or the specific committee member assigned to
this task can be swamped by everyone just because they don't want to attend
because if it turns out to be that the committee are the only ones to make the
physical meeting then it will also still give the impression that noone is
interested/borthered enough about VICS to make the effort.
This has been a long reply providing my view on things and not
necessarily the view of the whole committee but I hope that I have been able to
answer some of the points raised here and that I have given a reasonable
representation for the committee. I would however thank you for being thorough
in this Email, despite it's length, as it has at least shown some passion of
one member of VICS in what they want from the organisation and it's future. It
is just a shame that it hasn't sparked any more interest from other members of
VICS to contribute to this thread/discussion, and that being said then this
poses the question whether an online voting/meeting would have worked anyway
due to the lack of responses.
Kind regards
Martin
From: vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of GERARD SHANAHAN
Sent: 06 April 2014 20:23
To: vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [vicsireland] debate on vics and E.G.M
Hi All,
Back again to try and whet your appetites for a debate on the topics of
having the meeting online and the future of vicsireland website and list.
1. Regarding the meeting, Kerie, I hear what you are saying but I
strongly request that you consider my suggestion. I don't know the numbers of
members but I'm sure that if you review the membership, you will note that
there are a large contingent of people who have or do not attend regularly, on
the basis that they feel the effort involved in making the meeting i.e. trains,
taxis a few hours in Dublin would be too great an effort. This is no
reflection on you or any committee members just that they have no aspirations
to be on committees but would be willing to work with the committee on projects
on an email basis.I'd paraphrase this in saying that varying levels of vision
and mobility either enhance or hinder individuals - People please don't be
insulted as this is an observation.
2. I mentioned the website, and Cearbhall
explained that it was an experiment by a sub committee. O.K. but
isn't it a basic task of the committee to keep such tasks updated as part of
housekeeping if the capability is available to it?
3. As a matter of point to the mailing list, Most queries are answered
by other members but I did notice a request for information on windows 8 and
menus on webpages recently which didn't receiveany response. I was tempted to
reply giving my thoughts which were unexperienced due to only experiencing win
8 by chance and being an X.P. user myself.Shouldn't there be some mechanism by
which the knowledgable members of the committee would intervene and provide
info.
4. You stated that you emailed the list at the beginning of the year
for ideas but nothing came out of it. Shouldn't there be some kind of
consensis among the committee at the beginning of the year on areas to be
covered or projects to develop during the year. There is a diverse range of
abilities among the list members whom I'm sure would work with committee
inspired projects, if they were approached.
5. Is the basis of the computer society eroded so much that it is
easier to such the web for answers than to develop what we have. Simple answer
Yes, so what is the point, such an attitude
could have been taken years ago. success comes with effort.
6. Observing the responses to date, I believe that the numbers
involved have reduced in the society. A committee has to consider where to
canvas for new sources of members, did the committee consider this point?
7. What relationships or association has the society built up with
other groups, industry user groups ovr the years and what is the position
presently.
8. In my reading of the constitution, you have to contact members at
least 3 weeks previous to any meeting. Besides putting a notice on the mailing
list, Did the committee or you email all the members of vicsireland
individually to ensure that they are aware of the meeting?
9. I've read the constitution and it covers a great deal. My
original observation in that I believe that a committee should be the driving
force rather than leaving it to the general membership is endorsed by the
wording of the constitution:
2 AIMS & OBJECTIVES
list of 6 items
1. To meet the needs of visually impaired
people in the area of general computer access.
2. To provide support to those who are new to
computers.
3. To encourage employers to hire visually
impaired employees enabled by new technology.
4. To promote and where possible, assist in the
development of adaptive technology, and to encourage developers of new
software
and hardware to ensure accessibility.
5. To act in an advisory capacity to bodies
seeking to provide access to electronic data.
6. To advise on, and promote the development of
fully accessible websites.
There is plenty of topics that would keep any committee busy. Can you
provide any updates on recent developments under any of the headings?
9. The constitution states that: 2. Nominations may be made for
persons not
present at the meeting, on receipt of written approval from the
nominee. This in itself opens the door to having a meeting on line as if a
person is nominated and accepted while not being there, they are being
confirmed as part of the working group i.e. committee
10. Cearbhall suggest a project in developing the open source
software i.e. programs like Open office, mozilla, linox, N.V.D.A. This is a
very interesting idea. personally I wouldn't be great with the ligistics
involved, we could develop such a package on the basis that it could be applied
to the lower cost tablets for assisting individuals getting accustomed to
technology.
11. What would people's attitude be to paid advertising on the website
to create a finance stream. The funds created could be used to finance
accessibility awards for design competitions for accessible software or
rewarding companies who make their websites accessible. School competitions to
develop accessible apps for USE BY BLIND PEOPLE OR BLIND USERS TO DEVELOP APPS.
This thought comes from the recent email from Ronan
12. So, If I nominate and get a seconder for someone who might not be
there on the day Will it be accepted?
13. Damien suggested to Kerie that he would help with an agendafor the
meetingAlas Kerie says that there is only 1 item to be discussed: there are
twelve items above to be considered.
14. Martin pointed out to me that in the event of voting a separate
email would have to be used for all the votes. I think this would be fine,
once the motion is in the header people can reply to the motion with yes or no.
Alternatively, an email containing the motions can be forwarded to the
individuals on the list and they can put their preferred option in quotes
beside it.
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