HI Alex.
The word I used was neuropathy, not retinopathy. Though both mean damage,
one, neuropathy , is to the peripheral nervous system, the other Retinopathy
is to the retina, though both can be symptoms of diabetes. . the former
results in insensitivity in the fingertips or toes, or in hands and feet, at
least these are the most well known symptoms of neropathy. Because you
can't feel the buttons on a chip and pin machine due to insensitivity in the
fingers, this might mean you use chip and signature rather than chip and
pin, as the buttons are not large on some of those machines. You may, for
instance, use a pen with extra grip to enable holding the pen while signing
for chip and signature if you can't feel the pen so well due to nuropathy.
Original Message----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Alex Stone
Sent: 27 November 2015 22:13
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the Ombudsman
Martin, i'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but why should someone
with diabetic retinopathy not use chip and pin?
On 27/11/2015 22:06, Martin Wilsher (Redacted sender martinwilsher for
DMARC) wrote:
Diabetic neuropathy anyone? That's a reason for not using chip andis your preference?
pin, and blindness often accompanies that,.
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of CJ &AA MAY
Sent: 27 November 2015 21:20
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman
I see your point, although I'd argue with your examples. A ramp
doesn't just make it easier for a person with a walking stick, it
provides real accessability to someone in a wheelchair.
Chip and Pin for elderly people who cannot remember pin numbers or see
to check what it is, would be really stuck if they couldn't sign.
But a commercial company needs to provide accessability in the most
cost-effective way possible and so makes adjustments which meet the
needs of the mnajority of people. It can't hope to meet the precise
needs of every individual.
Alison
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Derek Hornby
Sent: 27 November 2015 21:15
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman
Hi Alison
yes the bank does offer a choice grade 1 or grade 2 Braille.
yes I find reading a document with Braille one side of page easier.
And I did explain few weeks ago why.
So when we talk about access to information, should we not consider
what's accessible full stop.
Or, what's easily accessible.
One might argue there is no need for ramps, simply because a person
with walking problems can walk up few steps.
But the ramp way is, easier!
And what about chip and signature.
Surely a person with sight problems can use a key pad!
Derek
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of CJ &AA MAY
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 8:49 PM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman
Oh Derek! No! Not Grade 1! All those extra pages, not to mention the
slowness of reading.
I'd suggest that anyone whose braille is limited to Grade 1 would be
very unlikely to have the skills to read a braille statement.
This is all getting a bit silly, isn't it? I appreciate your
preference for single sided braille and your reasons for this but are
you sayig you really cannot manage double-sided braille? Or are you
saying that you find single-sided braille easier to handle and that this
How are you going to feel when they start to follow the Brailleit.
Authority's guidelines and start producing your statements in UEB?
Alison
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Derek Hornby
Sent: 27 November 2015 20:31
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman
Hi Steve
They would not need four flags.
By default it could be produce grade 1 Braille and Braille on both
sides of page.
Then if a customer needs it different flag for grade 2 Braille and
a flag for one sid of page Braille.
I expect chip and PIN cards are offered by default.
So you only get a chip and signature card if you ask!
so same sort of thinking for Braille statements.
Grade 2 if you ask, Braille on both sides of paper if you ask.
grade 1 and Braille on both sides if you don't ask for different.
Easy!
Derek
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 4:39 PM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman
Hi Clive,
But can you imagine asking for single and double side as well. That'd
be four flags, just for Braille.
All the best
Steve
Computer Room Services
77 Exeter Close
Stevenage
Hertfordshire
SG1 4PW
Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
Email: steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Web: http://www.comproom.co.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Clive.Lever@xxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 27 November 2015 15:33
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman
Hi Steve,
Interestingly Natwest hold a flag on customers' records, saying wwhat
type of braille you want - graded or ungraded (by which they actually
mean Standard English Braille grade 2(graded) or grade 1(ungraded).
Honestly! Who
told them to use those terms? (smile)
Clive
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: 27 November 2015 15:17
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman
Hi Derek,
While it is not difficult for me to do, it depends on the transcriber,
the software they use, etc. Also, it would mean another flag that the
bank would have to hold on your records.
All the best
Steve
Computer Room Services
77 Exeter Close
Stevenage
Hertfordshire
SG1 4PW
Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
Email: steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Web: http://www.comproom.co.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Derek Hornby
Sent: 27 November 2015 14:49
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman
But Steve, I thought you agreed that what I was asking for isn't
difficult to do.
Remember the bank has said if they could do it they would happily do
So they still have-not said why cannot do it.
and the quote you have seen in another message, was from RNIB
Derek
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 2:10 PM
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: braille statements RNIB sides with the
Ombudsman
Hi,
I happen to agree with that finding.
All the best
Steve
Computer Room Services
77 Exeter Close
Stevenage
Hertfordshire
SG1 4PW
Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
Email: steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Web: http://www.comproom.co.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Derek Hornby
Sent: 27 November 2015 10:20
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] braille statements RNIB sides with the Ombudsman
Hi All
Regarding Braille bank statements.
here is more comment from the ombudsman.
Notice that RNIB supports the bank?
Also the bank has still failed to give a reason, as to why they
cannot do Braille on both saides of paper.
Few weeks ago they were saying if they could, they would happily do it!
Now quote from bank, to the ombudsman.
"As previously discussed to you on the telephone we do not offer any
customer bank statements single sided. All statements that we produce
included Braille are sent double sided and this is the way that
statement production system works.
"We have discussed this matter with the Royal Institute of Blind
People and they have provided the below to our Diversity Manager Dear
Neil, further to your telcon with Steve Tyler this morning, please
find below quote from Steve in this respect.
Reference: Complaint by Derek Hornby re Duplex Braille Statements
It is RNIB's view that the business decision taken by HSBC regarding
the production of bank statements in Duplex form (Braille on both sides
of the paper) is a perfectly accessible means of delivering
this
information to regular Braille reading clients. Although Mr Hornby
may have preferences around his ideal form of statements, as with all
business decisions, individual preferences and especially highly
specific ones cannot be delivered upon when handling mass produced
or template products. We believe that although he may have
a preference, double sided Braille is a standard and uniform
means
by which Braille is produced and has no bearing on the actual
accessibility of the product other than a stated preference.
Customers continually express preferences and were there to be an
overwhelming response, then clearly we would need to review processes
and would recommend that to HSBC.
As it stands, given the ubiquitous nature of Braille produced in this
standard fashion, as well as the environmental impact of reduced usage
of paper and consequent bulk of Braille, we believe this to be a
perfectly sound business decision by the bank.
regards
Helena Suprun
PA to Head of Solutions, Strategy and Planning (Steve Tyler) Royal
National Institute of Blind People (RNIB)
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