[AR] Re: Peltier specifications

From: "" <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> (Redacted sender "CRogers168@xxxxxxx" for DMARC)
To: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 00:48:10 -0400

HMX, Her Majesty's eXplosive. :)

Reminds me of driving around AFRL Edwards Rocket Site 15 or so years ago
with an AFRL old-timer (he had been there since the early 1960's), and he
pointed out, "see that building over there?" "That's where, after we develop
a really energetic compound, we figure out whether it's a rocket fuel or
an explosive".

Wasn't anything around that building for quite a great distance.

Chuck Rogers

In a message dated 8/5/2015 3:24:18 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
acesaroni@xxxxxxxxxxx writes:

HNF, HMX, polyNMMO plasticized with TMETN. What would be your guess?
Anthony

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 5, 2015, at 3:25 AM, George Herbert <_george.herbert@gmail.com_
(mailto:george.herbert@xxxxxxxxx) > wrote:

Is the HNF propellant 1.1 or just the bulk HNF chemical?

Thanks...

George William Herbert
Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 4, 2015, at 3:12 PM, "Anthony Cesaroni" <_acesaroni@cesaroni.us_
(mailto:acesaroni@xxxxxxxxxxx) > wrote:

Yup. HNF propellant below. 270 seconds, sea level delivered. No metal,
smoke or flame. Minor problem, $14K/lb. among other things. Add metal and it
really screams.
<image002.jpg>
Anthony J. Cesaroni
President/CEO
Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace
http://www.cesaronitech.com/
(941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota
(905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto
-----Original Message-----
From: _arocket-bounce@freelists.org_ (mailto:arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)
[mailto:arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Monroe L. King Jr.
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:04 PM
To: _arocket@freelists.org_ (mailto:arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)
Subject: [AR] Re: Peltier specifications
Anthony have you done any work with HNF? Being it's so hard to get right?
If you are I want a job at CTI. lol

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [AR] Re: Peltier specifications
From: "Anthony Cesaroni" <_acesaroni@cesaroni.us_

(mailto:acesaroni@xxxxxxxxxxx) >

Date: Tue, August 04, 2015 2:54 pm
To: <_arocket@freelists.org_ (mailto:arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) >

The Russians have (had) at least one notable ram rocket engine that
used the approach. It helps overcome some aluminum combustion issues
but doesn t completely solve them like HNF does. Clever those
Russians are. :-)

Best.

Anthony J. Cesaroni
President/CEO
Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace http://www.cesaronitech.com/
(941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota
(905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto

-----Original Message-----
From: _arocket-bounce@freelists.org_

(mailto:arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) [mailto:arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Monroe L. King Jr.

Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:38 PM
To: _arocket@freelists.org_ (mailto:arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)
Subject: [AR] Re: Peltier specifications

Hummm now that is interesting Anthony. Hummmmmm and thanks!

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [AR] Re: Peltier specifications
From: "Anthony Cesaroni" <_acesaroni@cesaroni.us_

(mailto:acesaroni@xxxxxxxxxxx) >

Date: Tue, August 04, 2015 2:31 pm
To: <_arocket@freelists.org_ (mailto:arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) >

Been there done that. It makes your rocket smell like your

grandmother's cedar chest and sublimates causing other issues as well. Having
said
that, if you press it with low micron or nano aluminum, it makes for an
interesting fuel grain with interesting ballistic characteristics.

.

Particularly in an ?all solid? hybrid.

Anthony J. Cesaroni

President/CEO

Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace

http://www.cesaronitech.com/

(941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota

(905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto

-----Original Message-----
From: _arocket-bounce@freelists.org_

(mailto:arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) [mailto:arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Monroe L. King Jr.

Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:18 PM
To: _arocket@freelists.org_ (mailto:arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)
Subject: [AR] Re: Peltier specifications

I wonder if Naphthalene would make a good additive to HTPB hybrid

propellant? It's a white powder (used mostly in mothballs) it sublimates quite
easily. It's a hydrocarbon, perhaps it would help stabilize hybrid
combustion?

I know adding AP to the HTPB helps combustion say 5%.

-------- Original Message --------

Subject: [AR] Re: Peltier specifications

From: Bill Claybaugh < <mailto:wclaybaugh2@xxxxxxxxxx>
_wclaybaugh2@hughes.net_ (mailto:wclaybaugh2@xxxxxxxxxx) >

Date: Tue, August 04, 2015 2:04 pm

To: " <mailto:arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> _arocket@freelists.org_

(mailto:arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) " <

<mailto:arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> _arocket@freelists.org_

(mailto:arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) >

Not really a preburner and not really adding any complexity; the TEA

system was needed for ignition, increasing the size of that tank was all
that was required to eliminate most combustion instability.

I can't speak to other technical solutions; but note that it does

not require all that much heat to vaporize a Lox fog.

Bill

Sent from my Commodore 64

On Aug 4, 2015, at 3:54 PM, Henry Vanderbilt <

<mailto:hvanderbilt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> _hvanderbilt@mindspring.com_
(mailto:hvanderbilt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx) > wrote:

Interesting. So if I'm understanding this correctly, you're

talking about something like an oxygen-rich preburner to make sure the
oxidizer
is thoroughly vaporized as being useful for large hybrids.

Makes sense of what VG might be having methane onboard SS2 for.

I'd been wondering about that.

It sounds like the sort of thing one would come up with after

already committing to large hybrids, then hitting the (apparently fairly
typical) uneven combustion, to make them actually work. If you assume from
the
start you'll need some sort of preburner with a separate fuel system, I'd
think large hybrids would lose their lower-parts-count edge over biprops in
the tradeoffs.

On 8/4/2015 11:37 AM, Bill Claybaugh wrote:

Mark:

It seems like an AN & ice water mix could be tailored to your

temperature goals. But why not go to a dry ice cooler and maximum density: a
single pass on a couple of coils should get you what you are seeking. LN2 is
also obviously an answer; both can be had in Mojave.

As Anthony has hinted, you will need a heat source at the head

end to assure the N2O fog is vaporized, otherwise combustion will be rough
and unstable. At Amroc we injected TEA throughout the burn to vaporize the
Lox; I gather VG is using Methane in the SS2 nylon motor.

Bill

Sent from my Commodore 64

On Aug 3, 2015, at 9:33 PM, Mark C Spiegl <

<mailto:mark.spiegl@xxxxxxxxx> _mark.spiegl@gmail.com_
(mailto:mark.spiegl@xxxxxxxxx) > wrote:

Wow... Im out of the office for a day and my inbox is full!
:-)

Anyway.. Anyone who has followed my hybrid projects knows Im a

fan of high density Nitrous. Im looking to cool 20-50 lbs of Nitrous to
25-ish degF.

Goals:

(1) Flashing liquid to vapor to chill Nitrous is fine in a

motor burning 10-20 lbs of Nitrous. Much above 20lbs (esp in the desert),
flashing liquid to gas becomes impractical. I would like to start a little
closer to my target temperature of 22 degF. The Peltier, Stirling Cooler, or
whatever would chill the supply tank, not the rocket tank.

I know ice is a quick-and-dirty answer, but I would like

something a little more elegant and deterministic. Bags of ice aren't a great
answer at FAR or Blackrock.

(2) I have had trouble igniting high density Nitrous in warm

weather. Cold weather is no problem. I cannot prove what is happening, but I
suspect temperature gradients in the long thin Nitrous tank are causing the
problem. If the Nitrous is 22 degF at the top of the tank, it may be much
much colder at the injector. Supplying Nitrous close to the final
temperature should help mitigate this problem, if Im correct.

A related question: Any simple ways to equalize temperature

between the top and bottom of the rocket's oxidizer tank???

--MCS

(Im an EE kind of person so my solutions tend to feel like

electronics... ie Peltiers)

[AR] Re: Peltier specifications

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