I agree 99.9%. I agree that this device most likely is not capable of perpetual motion not even as a thought experiment, However, just like The 900 MHz NMR Magnet which since it was first charged in July 2004, has been continually conducting 300 amps of electrical current by itself which before quantum physics was known was considered unobtainable, so may there be other devices that also do the same. The key word is KNOWN. It makes me laugh that when someone makes a device and 3/4's of the worlds scientist stand up and say it can't be done because it breaks this law or that law when in fact, the laws they are talking about where considered heresy just a few hundred years ago. Are people so ignorant to think that they know everything and there is nothing more to learn, that every law of nature is already known. For all intensive purposes, perpetual energy, and thus motion has already be done. For 12 million in 2004 dollars you to can have power for as long as you live and probably you kids and grand kids too. But perpetual energy is not cheap, the upkeep is very expansive, and equipment very heavy, and the building to house the beast very large. One mistake a lot of people make is that just because it's perpetual motion dose not mean it's cheap or even feasible.
However, this is an armature rocketry forum and the device in question is a said to be a thruster and therefor relates to the forum. Would that device ever be used by a person in this forum, I doubt it, but the invaluable information passed between one member and another is how things build upon themselves to maybe spark someone's imagination into developing a new theory or a new device that same day in the future may be the next breakthrough in space. So if we are going to discuss this on this forum lets discuss the device itself and not as a thought experiment on the "what if's".
Robert At 12:04 AM 8/8/2014, you wrote:
Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2014 00:18:41 +1000 From: Jake Anderson<jake@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [AR] Re: NASA test of quantum vacuum plasma thruster (was "Anyone It is an "unbalanced force", in every case F = MA if something pushes in one way it is balanced by something pushing in the other. If the thruster worked, sure it took power in, but it produces a force without pushing on something else and from there there are any number of ways of turning that into perpetual motion. I do still wonder where a photonic system fails and I'd really like to hear an explanation for why it would, though I fear the answer involves actual numbers not just abstract thought to work. ;->Well, we can apply some abstract thinking to the concept of "work": Work = Force x Distance. Power = Work / Time, and Speed = Distance / Time, thus Power = Force x Speed. If you've got a gadget that produces force F, and you couple it to a generator whose armature moves at speed S, then simplistically you ought to be able to get power P = F x S out. If that's more than the power you put in, there's a problem. So, solve for S, i.e. Speed. For any supposed reactionless thruster, there is a critical speed beyond which attaching that thruster to a generator results in a perpetual motion machine. That speed is equal to P/F. For the best EMdrive allegedly tested in the paper, that speed is about 50 km/s. Practically irrelevant, but still theoretically troubling. For the EMdrive allegedly predicted by theory and tested by the Chinese, that speed is only 2.5 km/s. We can actually build flywheels that spin that fast if we really need to. The Chinese are instead still building coal-fired powerplants. For an ideal photon drive, P/F comes to exactly 299,792,458 m/s. Sound familiar? Yep. A photon drive becomes a perpetual motion machine the moment you attach it to a generator whose armature moves faster than light, and no sooner. Conservation of Momentum, Conservation of Energy, Special and General Relativity, they've all got each other's back. John Schilling john.schilling@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (661) 718-0955