Ah yes-Dear Old Semantics-Cow One is not Cow Two is not Cow Three-etc. Richard
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 13, 2019, at 7:42 AM, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Roger,
Does it occur to you that there might be a reason why so many of us on the
list, end up arguing with you from time to time and that the reason might
have to do with you and not us?
Perhaps it isn't your responsibility to provide information whenever it seems
to you that you have the answer to a question and we do not.
I don't remember the art discussion, but I suspect that if I said that I
don't know what art is, I was making a statement about art, not a statement
about my ignorance. If one is very literal minded, one has difficulty
telling the difference between rhetorical questions, statements phrased as
questions, and actual questions.
Carl is a wonderful model of tact, gentleness, and modesty for all of us. He
knows how to avoid conflict with people while continuing to hold his beliefs.
His response to you about Fascism was identical to mine, but stated so
cleverly, that you never perceived it as a challenge.
I am going to tell you how I feel about your explanations. This is a
statement of feeling. Feelings and emotions are real and they don't change
because someone explains why one shouldn't have them. When you explain things
and you think that you're just giving information and you insist that your
explanation is correct with logical and/or literary backup, I feel as if I
were being bullied. I feel like I can't express thoughts or feelings without
being corrected. I feel, probably like you do whenfundamentalist Christians
insist on explaining to you why there really is a God or when Mustafa
explains to you why Islam is the true faith.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey
(Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 10:49 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: BREAKING-Moreno Withdraws Asylum as Assange is
Arrested
I do not make that assumption. When I don't know anything about a topic at
hand I usually don't say anything or if I do say something it is questions
that will help me understand what I do not know anything about, but in the
instances that I find myself obligated to explain or to answer questions,
either implicit or explicit, I don't have to assume that I know more because
it is obvious that I do. To go back to the example that I was using, if you
say that you do not know what art is then that is an admission of ignorance
and if I do happen to know what art is it would be negligent on my part to
not answer the implicit question. In a more recent example I noticed Carl
misusing a word, fascist, and I simply offered a quick explanation of what it
is and why such loose use of a word that actually means something should be
avoided. Again, it was a brief comment and there was no need for it to be
discussed any further. But for whatever reason you decided to jump all over
me about it and you felt like you had to defend the misuse of the word. I
noticed that Carl simply accepted what I had to say and said so. I will also
say that while reading this very message to which I am replying I was
thinking of saying that this is another example of my having a debate forced
on me and then at the end of your message you say that you don't want to
continue the debate. Okay, I don't either, but it is you who started and
continued the debate. All I did was to make a very brief and passing comment
on the misuse of a word. You are also the one who uses the word superior.
That did not come from me. I am well aware that you and everyone else has
knowledge that I do not have. I used the example of the adoption business as
an example before. I am certain that you know a lot more about that subject
than I do because I know virtually nothing about it and so I am fully ready
to defer to your knowledge on that subject. If you want to use the word
superior then I would be very ready to admit that your knowledge of the
adoption business is entirely superior to mine. When you have mentioned
something about it now and then on this list that is an example of my having
not had anything to say about it because I don't know anything about it.
However, if I did say something about it and my ignorance caused me to make a
mistake and you corrected me I would accept your correction and I would
certainly not try to argue with you about something I know nothing about and
that you do know about. But at the same time there are things that I know
about. If you insist on the word superior then I suppose I have superior
knowledge on those specific areas. Somehow in my case when I try to explain
the things that I do know something about someone always wants to start
arguing with me. It is so frustrating for me to make casual comments that I
think are not going to even start a discussion and then someone has to start
arguing with me as if I am the one who doesn't know what he is talking about.
Just imagine what it would be like for you if on those occasions that you
have mentioned the adoption business if I had started denying the validity of
anything you said and tried to make it out that you were the one who did not
know what you were talking about. Then what if I started criticizing you for
assuming that your knowledge was superior. Well, I suppose your knowledge is
superior in that area. But what if I told you that it would help if you
didn't assume that your knowledge of the adoption business was superior?
Frankly, Miriam, what would really be helpful is if you and everyone else
just accepted that all of us have certain areas that we know more about than
the others and that all of us have many more areas that we know nothing
about. With that acceptance some mutual learning could be accomplished. I
fully realize that. But I still have to put up with the attitude that
whenever I try to say anything about something that I do know about that I
have to be argued with. It would work a lot better if we could just all see
each other as equals rather than single me out as the inferior ignoramus who
does not even know about his own fields of interest.
---
Christopher Hitchens
“ What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without
evidence. ”
― Christopher Hitchens,
On 4/12/2019 9:56 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Roger,
It would be helpful if you didn't assume that you know more than the rest of
us and that it's your responsibility to explain things. We end up having
debates because I, or someone else, doesn't accept your assertion that your
knowledge of a particular subject is superior. Your intellect is superior.
Your tech skills are superior. But I don't accept that your knowledge of
all of the subjects that you've felt it necessary to explain to me or anyone
else, is superior. And that finishes my part of the discussion on this
subject because I'm not willing to continue the debate.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey
(Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 9:28 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: BREAKING-Moreno Withdraws Asylum as
Assange is Arrested
It would be too time consuming to respond to all of what you have to say
here. So let me just respond to the last point about not wanting to have
debates. Frankly, I don't particularly want to have debates either.
Mostafa is an exception. I do consider myself to have been debating him.
At least I do until he withdraws from the debate and starts throwing
tantrums. That kind of shuts down the debate. However, otherwise I have not
been trying to debate despite you repeated assumption that I am.
It's like this. What am I supposed to do when someone says something that
shows that he or she does not understand something that I do understand. It
seems to me that the natural, normal and polite thing to do is to explain
it. My expectation is that the person will accept it and if there is a
response it will be in the form of questions so that I might clarify
something that I might have been unclear about. But when the other person
wants to turn it into a debate I am not the one who is trying to have a
debate. It is someone else who is trying to have the debate. I remember the
time that you said that you didn't know what art is. I offered up a concise
simple explanation of what it is. I really expected that would be the end of
it. Instead I was denounced as virtually the epitome of evil for simply
explaining what art is. The one with the greatest indignation was Alice. But
no matter how much she denounced my explanation of what art is she never,
not once, offered an alternative explanation of it. It was as if the
greatest crime imaginable was simply trying to explain it at all. But that
was not in any way an attempt on my part to have a debate. It was simply an
attempt to answer an implicit question. And that is usually the case. Yes,
call what I have been doing with Mostafa a debate, but otherwise I seem to
have debates forced on me when I have no intention of debating and then I am
the one who is accused of trying to debate.
---
Christopher Hitchens
“ What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without
evidence. ”
― Christopher Hitchens,
On 4/12/2019 4:41 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Roger,
I'm sorry that I made that unfounded assumption about the book and about
where you were coming from. I do apologize.
I listened to Noam Chomsky on Democracy Now this morning. I don't know if
you've ever heard him talk or read any of his writing. He's celebrating his
90th birthday and to me, he seems like one of the most intelligent,
knowledgeable people that I've ever come across. He was comparing what is
happening here in the US, as well as in several Latin American countries
and European countries, to what was happening in Italy and Germany in 1939.
He quoted someone, perhaps Mark Twain, can't remember, to the effect that
history doesn't exactly repeat itself, but it rhymes.
I know that precise definitions are very important to you. I tend to be
more like Carl in this respect. I just know how all of this feels to me.
Maybe Fascism isn't the correct word from your prospective, but we're not
in an academic seminar. We're just bullshitting here on an email list. If
we get something wrong, it doesn't matter a whole lot. But it does matter
if we insult each other, even inadvertently.
Back in 1971, I was a member of a women's consciousness raising group. We
talked about a lot of very sensitive things and when the group started, we
were strangers. So there were some rules that had been laid out for new
groups by the people at the State College who initiated the consciousness
raising groups. The idea was to not be judgemental or accusatory toward
each other. Everyone should be able to state her experiences and feelings
without people stating their opinions about what was said. That meant that
we didn't say, "I think you're wrong." Or "I'd never act that way", or,
"I'd never feel that way". But one could say, "These are my experiences."
"This is what I felt when that happened to me". And we never tried to
teach each other anything. We just listened and shared. I think that on
this list, we're just trying to listen and share. We don't expect that
we're going to change each other's minds about life, especially not those
of us who are more than 70 years old. We're not attempting to show off
about superior intellect or superior education. Most list members don't
want to post at all and some of us who do, don't want to have debates. We
just want a place where it's safe to share what's important to us.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 3:19 PM
To: blind-democracy <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: BREAKING-Moreno Withdraws Asylum as
Assange is Arrested
Miriam, in a way you are like Mostafa. You make assumptions about me
that have no basis in anything. I cannot count the number of times that I
have expressed my personal opinion and you have dismissed it as Marxist
theory as if I don't have any opinions of my own. Now I find a book on
bookshare that I have not even read, but the synopsis seems to indicate
that it might have an explanation of what fascism is and you dismiss it as
a book that will give a Marxist definition of fascism. How can you be so
sure of that when I, myself, don't know that it has anything to do with
Marxism? This attitude is like Mostafa's in another way too. That is, you
have your mind made up about what fascism is and you just don't want to
even be exposed to anything that might show that it is something else.
Okay, don't read that book. I have nnot read it myself and I don't know
that I will. But at least think about this. When there is a word that
describes an entire political ideology don't you think that using it as a
synonym for authoritarianism or just as an insult word for name calling is
just about bound to lead you to be using the word wrong? You said yourself
that calling Obama a communist was just crazy. Frankly, I strongly suspect
that the people who do call him a communist know that he is not even close
to a communist. It is just name calling, not political analysis, just name
calling. Well the word fascist is used for a lot of name calling too.
Unfortunagtely, I suspecgt that a lot of the people who use fascist as a
name calling insult word really don't know that the ones they are callingg
fascist are not even close to being fascists.
---
Christopher Hitchens
“ What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without
evidence. ”
― Christopher Hitchens,
On 4/11/2019 5:34 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Thanks. I'm really not motivated to read a whole book giving me a Marxist
definition of Fascism. I'm having enough problems getting to read the
books that I'm truly motivated to read. But although we may not have a
developed workers' movement, we have a lot of frustrated folks whom I
would define as blue collar and lower middle class and a whole lot of
angry people who are white, however, you wish to define their class
status. And they are following Trump because he gives them explanations
that appeal to them for why their lives haven't turned out as they wish.
He tells them that their jobs have been stolen by foreigners, some in
other countries and some who have emigrated here. He tells them that life
will feel better if their country as the richest, most powerful in the
world. He hands them scapegoats like the media and criminals and enemies
whom he identifies at rallies. And he has rallies, constantly, to rile up
his base. And he praises the Police. I'm sure that a majority of police
officers love him. Police officers and prison guards and ICE officers. The
electrician who came to repair things for me ever since the mid nineties,
who is a very kind man, has a huge Trump sign on his truck. I'll bet that
the guy who used to repair my appliances, voted for him too. The woman who
used to drive me to medical appointments, voted for him, and probably the
one who did my shopping and errands and whom I've known since 1993 did
too. They're all white Long Island blue collar people. These folks are
organized by watching Fox Cable TV. They may not be your idea of a
movement, but they are one anyway. I remember my shopping person saying to
me, "I don't agree with Trump about a lot of things, but he's right about
the immigrants". The statistic I heard yesterday is that 40% of the
country supports him and his policies.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Loran Bailey<rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 4:25 PM
To:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam
Vieni<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [blind-democracy] Re: BREAKING-Moreno Withdraws Asylum
as Assange is Arrested
Trump does come a bit closer to being a fascist than Obama comes to being
a communist, but the dictionary definition you came up with is rather
simplistic. Fascism requires certain conditions to come about. It is a
working class movement that has been hijacked by a demagogue to justify
imperialism. The demagogue sets sections of the working class against
another section. If their is a tendency toward fascism in Trump it is his
anti-immigrant stance, but he has not misdirected a workers movement into
that kind of movement. For one thing, there simply is not a workers
movement that is available to scapegoat immigrants. If you want to see an
incipient fascist look at Patrick Buchannon. Whatever happened to him
anyway? He also did not have a mass workers movement to misdirect and so
he was only an incipient fascist. However, he did engage in some
anti-capitalist sounding rhetoric and blamed foreign sections of the
working class, not capitalists, for the economic woes of the American
working class. There is a book that I would like to recommend called What
is Fascism and How to Fight it. I just looked for it on Bookshare and it
wasn't there. Right now I don't have time to check around to try to find
another source of an accessible copy, but it does a pretty good job of
explaining what fascism is and under what conditions it develops. However,
while checking Bookshare I did find something else that looks promising. I
should be wary of recommending books that I have not read, but the
synopsis indicates that it might have some pretty good information It is
called simply What is Fascism.
Here is a link to it:
https://www.bookshare.org/browse/book/2236389?returnPath=L3NlYXJjaD9
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---
Christopher Hitchens
“ What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without
evidence. ”
― Christopher Hitchens,
On 4/11/2019 3:55 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Calling Obama a Communist is crazy because there's nothing about his
philosophy of government or his actions as president that resembles
Communism or Socialism or even the left wing of the Democratic Party.
He's clearly a centrist with progressive social values. Here's what I
found in the dictionary"
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime
(such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race
above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic
government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and
social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or
dictatorial control
So why doesn't that fit Trump's vision and that of the current right wing
of the Republican Party?
Miriam
Other Words from fascism
-----Original Message-----
From:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 3:25 PM
To:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: BREAKING-Moreno Withdraws Asylum as
Assange is Arrested
There are those who have called Barack Obama a communist too. He is not
and never was. It is just as inaccurate to call Trump a fascist. Fascism
is not a synonym for authoritarianism.
---
Christopher Hitchens
“ What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without
evidence. ”
― Christopher Hitchens,
On 4/11/2019 3:15 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Well, I think Trump and his loyal base are the real thing, regardless of
what the politically correct definition is. He and they reject all
accepted international norms regarding democratic law and human rights
and, in case you haven't noticed, there is a right wing takeover of the
legal system which will last for generations, and a dissolution of most
of the existing safeguards to civil liberties, financial security, and
environmental protection. The only industry that we have left is the war
industry. If Fascism isn't the correct label, does it really matter?
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 2:56 PM
To:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Carl Jarvis<carjar82@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: BREAKING-Moreno Withdraws Asylum as
Assange is Arrested
It would be well to remember that fascism has a specific meaning and its
development requires certain historical conditions including a
radicalization of the working class. Fascist is not just a synonym for
authoritarian. I now forget who it was, but in the seventies just after
Nixon resigned there was a socialist leader who said that those who
called Richard Nixon a fascist would find it hard to be listened to when
the real thing came along.
---
Christopher Hitchens
“ What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without
evidence. ”
― Christopher Hitchens,
On 4/11/2019 11:08 AM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Everything Americans believed we were defending against, when we
entered WWII, is now us. We sacrificed so many young lives, and
we devastated the homes and lands of so many people who were also
victims, in order to end Fascism. Only to find ourselves
embracing Fascism, not only in our own Land but encouraging it in
nations around the Globe.
And now the American Empire, through its cohort Briton, finally
has its clutches on Julian Assange. We will be witness to a
trial that will look exactly like the Mock Trials we once denounced.
And when the final verdict is handed down, and Julian Assange is
placed in solitary confinement, the New World Fascists will
openly and boldly and viciously eliminate any remaining vestige of Free
Speech.
Then they will sing songs of victory...until their asthmatic,
cancer-ridden throats and lungs can no longer suck in another
breath of the polluted air they have created.
Carl Jarvis
On 4/11/19, Miriam Vieni<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
BREAKING—Moreno Withdraws Asylum as Assange is Arrested
April 11, 2019 • 13 Comments
The WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange has been arrested after the
Ecuadorian president, Lenin Moreno, withdrew Assange’s asylum,
in a move that runs counter to international asylum law.
WikiLeaks tweeted that Ecuador allowed British police into the
London embassy to arrest Assange at around 10:30 am British
time,
5:30 am in Washington.
This is the moment when Assange was dragged out by police. He
was heard to say, “The UK must resist this….the UK must resist.”
Assange was taken with an arrest warrant for skipping bail when
he entered the Ecuadorian embassy in June 2012, fearing
extradition to the United States, where there is a sealed
indictment with his name on it. Assange lawyer Jennifer
Robinson tweeted that he has been arrested for breach of bail
conditions and also because of a request for extradition from the U.S.
Assange was taken a police station and will later be brought to
Magistrate’s court, according to a tweet from Christine Assange,
Julian’s mother.
Former Ecuadorian President Rafael Correrá reacted by calling
Moreno the “greatest traitor in Ecuadorian and Latin American history.”
Full translation: “The greatest traitor in Ecuadorian and Latin
American history, Lenin Moreno, allowed the British police to
enter our embassy in London to arrest Assange. Moreno is a
corrupt, but what he has done is a crime that humanity will never
forget.”
Moreno made a national television address to announce his decision.
While the expulsion of a refugee to a country that could harm
him for political reasons, known as refoulement, is against
international law, Moreno accused Assange of “repeated
violations to international conventions and daily-life protocols.”
Unity4J will hold an emergency vigil under the hashtag
#FreeJulian beginning at noon U.S. Eastern Standard Time that
will be webcast live on Consortium News.
NSA whistleblower Ed Snowden reacted on Twitter:
Journalist and filmmaker John Pilger tweeted:
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