Well put to both martin and paul. I agree with both entirely. It would be a pity if we had to differentiate the group in this way. We are not that big in number and there is a really good feel about the group. Dare I say that the level of knowledge of some is an inspiration to others.
All The Best Ed----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Halligan" <tigerone@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:24 PM Subject: [vicsireland] Re: Thoughts On a Tech Vics List hi to all and the two tonys for tek list i hear the merits of a tek list suggestion and these would be my provisional thoughts on it. some of us might be left behind, if those on list with greater knowledge leave the ship personally over the last year or so of using the list i have found it invaluable. i am a firm believer in a level playing ground and swapping information so that we all get there . many times i have not had the slightest clue about how to resolve a problem and people on the list that knew the answer came to my rescue. those peoples resources could very easily be lost if there was an emigraione to a tek list. as tony m says its all down to communications when it comes to experts, i would not regard myself as an expert in any area of pc land , but as far as communicating i believe that a simple , 1 2 3 step approach increases all of our knowledge. i sense a great feeling on list when someone gets help in resolving an issue and for that matter when a member with the knowledge to give that assistance gives help too. how many times have we seen a request to resolve a problem then lo and behold a few weeks or months later someone hits the list with a similar problem and the person who originally was asking for help can now give it. we did all start at the beginning after all and if we don't know the answer then surely we are at the beginning again but just in another area. having said all this i would like to hear other members thoughts. Paul H p.s. there are those that know and know they know. there are those that don't know and know that they don't know. but lord protect us from those that don't know and think they do.----- Original Message -----
From: <Tony.G.Murray@xxxxxx>
To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:32 AM Subject: [vicsireland] Re: Thoughts On a Tech Vics List
Hi Tony and all, In my opinion, I believe introducing a second list is not such a good idea. I absolutely appreciate the merits of your argument for a second list, and believe me... it was discussed many times while I was Chairperson. Were VICS to adopt a second list, I do believe it would be something to be decided at the AGM. So you're right to bring it up now; plenty of time to knock the idea about! OK, so why do I think it's better to have everyone on the one list? 1) People on the VICS list, no matter what their skill level learn from others. I absolutely believe that, because I am a typical case. I've worked in the I.T industry for over seven years now, and I guess I'm pretty good at the little corner of the field I happen to exist in, I must be doing ok, I can do my job. There are areas, many of which would be considered 'basic computing' I am not skilled in. So, where do I fall? Am I advanced, or am I a beginner? 2) What if someone who felt they were a 'less advanced' user decided they probably couldn't contribute to the 'advanced' list... when in actual fact they were brimming with good stuff? What is advanced, and what isn't? 3) Would those who consider themselves to be advanced computer users bother with the list for less advanced users? I'd like to think they would, but who knows? If even one person decided not to go on the less advanced list, that's a good learning resource unavailable to VICS' perceived 'less skilled' members. 4) Do we have the traffic to constitute a second list? VICS is often very quiet, and sometimes it bursts in to life. Personally, I like it that way. Were it to be split, would anything happen at all? As it stands, it could never be considered a busy list, even at it's peak times. 5) which topics belong on what list, and why? For example, is HTML programming 'advanced'? Is Excel considered 'advanced'? Is using a Braille Note 'less advanced'? When Jaws stops speaking while using Microsoft Access... Is Jaws 'less advanced' and Access 'advanced'? I don't want to have the same mails coming from different lists, because people sending them are unsure as to what belongs where. 6) We all have delete keys (and thank goodness for that!). If something doesn't interest me on the list, I simply delete it. It takes less time to do that than to consider the proficiency level of the user who is sending it by checking what list it is on. 7) Do VICS really want to create an 'us and them' feeling throughout the society? Maybe that's a little over the top, but maybe not. Granted, I heard it from some sources while I was heavily involved with VICS, that there were those who were afraid to post anything to the list, as it was perceived as being 'too advanced'. This of course should not be the case, and everyone should be encouraged to post no matter what the query is. I absolutely believe that every member of VICS has something good to contribute; something that many of us could learn from no matter how we view our personal skill level. 8) Personally (and this is very 'me' here), I don't believe I'd like to be a member of a list of people who consider themselves to be exclusively 'advanced' techies. There are far too many self proclaimed experts in the world, and especially in technology. I believe that those who have the goods are happy to do their thing to make a living or carry on a hobby, without having to exclude others they perceive to be 'less' than themselves by separating lists, using language and acronyms which are difficult to decipher, etc etc. Naturally, people who have advanced skills in some areas of technology worth their bacon know that being able to clearly communicate with other techies and nontechies alike, on a level plain, and without any confusion is the key to success. Sadly, pathetically, frustratingly, this is not always the case. People should not be intimidated by some guy who thinks he's an 'expert' or 'advanced computer user' rolling out crap on a list or in an article that pretty much nobody is interested in. Why? Well, because that's basically what it boils down to... Crap, nonsense, call it what you will. 'Experts' who feel they have to engage in this sort of thing are at a basic level lacking in communication skills, and theoretically (my own theory that is), desperately searching for recognition or respect from others. It's easy to see why this doesn't work, is it not? A truly skilled person in their field does not need to be told they're good, or feel they have to stretch their technical legs in public to try and gain some sort of status. Am I defining an inferiority complex? God, I think I am, and I've just noticed I'm ranting too! Anyway, there's my €0.20 worth, which I suppose is pretty similar to £0.02 at the moment... A single functioning list is the way to go. Best wishes, Tony ******************************************************This document is strictly confidential and is intended for use by the addressee unless otherwise indicated.This email has been scanned by an external email security system. Allied Irish BanksAIB and AIB Group are registered business names of Allied Irish Banks p.l.c. Allied Irish Banks, p.l.c. is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered Office: Bankcentre, Ballsbridge, Dublin 4. Tel: + 353 1 6600311; Registered in Ireland: Registered No. 24173Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. ******************************************************
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