[vicsireland] Re: Captchas
- From: "tonysweeney" <tonysweeney1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 00:57:35 -0000
Hi Tony,
Thank you!
Would it be possible for you and Vics to come up with an alternative?
It is a query only!
Love to hear more responses from listers on the matter.
All the best,
Tony Sweeney.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Murray" <tony@xxxxxxxx>
To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 5:32 PM
Subject: [vicsireland] Captchas
> Hi Tony/Cearbhall,
>
> Here is a snippet from the original article Tony posted:
> "The only problem: Campbell couldn't read the text in the image. In fact,
he
> couldn't see it at all - he's been blind his entire life.
>
> "All I want to do is buy tickets and I can't do that, because there's this
> verification and they have not provided an audio link to it," Campbell
> said."
>
> The image referred to here is the Captcha, which prevented our friend from
> buying his tickets. So, they certainly did not assist him while trying to
> carry out his online transaction.
>
> In my first mail, I quoted the article as saying:
> "captchas can be made accessible by using audio clips in addition to
images
> to verify users as human."
>
> I absolutely disagree with this comment, and I've given my reasons in a
> previous mail.
>
> Cearbhall, to quote your mail:
> "Society is not organised to react to this change of
> mode and "disables" the person's performance by not communicating in the
way
> chosen or facilitating alternative ways of moving around."
>
> I absolutely agree. Not the ideal situation. With that in mind, why
should
> we be accepting of the visual technology that is Captchas, and why should
we
> settle for a very shaky bolt-on solution that doesn't work most of the
time?
>
> To quote you further:
> "This approach is not helpful to a person who doesn't want to use the
visual
> aspects of a situation. Such a person needs to know what the idea is and
be
> given it in a way that can be picked up either aurally or by the use of
> tactile systems."
>
> Yes, I agree with that also. The problem here is, many people can not
> gather the information displayed by the visual captcha successfully. The
> distorted audio file which is sometimes present to accompany a Captcha
does
> not serve to bring a clear understanding of what is required of the user,
> and in many cases restricts the user from accessing the web site's
service.
>
> My biggest problem is with the use of visual Captchas in general. There
> simply has to be an alternative solution, so we are not "disabled" by this
> technology.
>
> Therefore, as a member of a society who pride themselves on working
towards
> inclusive design, I would not accept that this Audio alternative to a
> Captcha, which may only barely enable a very few members of one set of
> disabled people, should be supported or seen as 'a good start'. Visual
> Captchas on web sites should not be used. We shouldn't have to rely on
half
> thought through add-ons, which only work occasionally and for a small
> percentage of disabled people.
>
> Your signature line reads:
> "Good design enables - Bad design disables"
>
> Visual Captchas are an example of "bad design", because no viable all
> inclusive alternative can be created. There for, Captchas "disable".
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tony
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tonysweeney" <tonysweeney1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 4:30 PM
> Subject: [vicsireland] Re: Javaa Scripts
>
>
> > Hi Tony,
> > You know I was always brought up to understand that it is a noble and a
> > good
> > thing for one to apologise.
> > I must apologise myself if I took you up wrongly in your opinion but
maybe
> > early Mondays maybe are not such a great ideas for sending such emails!!
> > Now I usually read over very carefully a couple of times articles I come
> > across that I think would be of interest to fellow listers.
> > I do thankfully work and am fairly busy otherwise. It does take up an
> > amount
> > of my spare time collating such articles; it is not done willy-nilly I
> > assure you!
> > I sent the article on Captchas more for ideas from people, to see what
> > they
> > thought! Perhaps I should have mentioned that in a forwarding note!
> > Let people have a reasoned debate on issues!
> > Captchas did apparently assist that man in that article!
> > I am not saying whether I am in favour of them or not!
> > I will need to hear and read more on the matter from professionals in
the
> > area like yourself and others.
> > Is there a policy from Vics on Captchas?
> > In the access for all you mentioned, for example I am using a computer
> > with
> > speech. Now Jaws would be of no use to a deaf-blind person; Don't know
> > how
> > a person with no arms could use a computer, but I'm sure it is possible!
> > You know if we all were to wait to have access for all ideally, no
> > disabled
> > group would get very far on in a lifetime.
> > I emphasize I am in favour of access for all!
> > Now could we all have a reasoned debate on the matter?
> > Perhaps I might even be educated!
> > Anyway normal transmission should resume!
> > All the best,
> > Tony Sweeney.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Tony Murray" <tony@xxxxxxxx>
> > To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 8:45 PM
> > Subject: [vicsireland] Re: Javaa Scripts
> >
> >
> >> Hi Tony,
> >>
> >> I must apologise. If you felt my negative comments were directed at
you,
> >> then let me assure you I never meant them to come across that way.
> >>
> >> The article, as I said, in my opinion is not a good one. Captchas, by
> > their
> >> very nature, are a bad idea. As far as I know, there is no real way of
> >> having a fully accessible instance of one. If people such as web
> > designers,
> >> project managers etc read such an article, they may think that having
the
> >> additional audible clip is the accepted and fool-proof solution. It is
> > not,
> >> and I don't think Captchas will ever be truly accessible.
> >>
> >> My point was, and I do apologise if I didn't put it in the best way I
> > could
> >> have, creating this bolt-on supposedly acceptable accessibility fix and
> >> sticking it on to a technology as a whole, i.e. Captchas, that will
> > probably
> >> never be usable to many disabled people is not to be encouraged in the
> >> least. The whole area is bad news.
> >>
> >> Given that you didn't initially comment in favour or against the
article,
> > I
> >> felt I had to. This was to eliminate any ambiguities as regards our
> >> position as a society which may arise, especially when someone searches
> > our
> >> email archives.
> >>
> >> This is not my list, this is our list. I'd urge you to continue to use
> > it;
> >> I've told you before that you are a valued contributor.
> >>
> >> To finish, I will say once more that I'm sorry if I offended you in any
> > way.
> >> I feel strongly on this subject, as it effects us all as Internet
Users.
> > If
> >> my language was over the top, I do apologise.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Tony
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "tonysweeney" <tonysweeney1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 3:39 PM
> >> Subject: [vicsireland] Re: Javaa Scripts
> >>
> >>
> >> >I feel your reaction to be ____________way over the top
> >> > Surely something is better than nothing till we get the inclusivity
> >> > "design
> >> > For All" we all seek!
> >> > Pity you couldn't have given a more reasoned response!
> >> > I am not speaking for the article writer but his peace seemed
> >> > reasonable
> >> > enough under the circumstances.
> >> > I doubt that anyone would be so stupid as to think that an article
> >> > forwarded to your list would necessarily be the opinion of Vics!
> >> > Surely all thoughts and opinions should be discussed with respect and
> >> > in
> >> > a
> >> > civilized manner!
> >> > Why do you not contact the editor and article writer giving your
> >> > opinion
> >> > there?
> >> > You will have no worries about me forwarding articles to your list in
> > the
> >> > future because I won't be!_____
> >> > I am also seriously considering not renewing my membership when it is
> > due
> >> > around again.
> >> > Disgusted.
> >> > Tony Sweeney.
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: "Tony Murray" <Tony.G.Murray@xxxxxx>
> >> > To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:21 AM
> >> > Subject: [vicsireland] Re: Javaa Scripts
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > I don't think the below article is particularly helpful to anyone,
and
> >> > it's
> >> > message is skewed in my opinion. To be honest, I'd prefer not to see
> > this
> >> > kind of stuff posted on our list, as I'd hate to think that VICS
would
> >> > support recommendations like the below.
> >> >
> >> > "captchas can be made accessible by using audio clips in addition to
> >> > images
> >> > to verify users as human. Some sites, like LiveJournal.com, already
do
> >> > this."
> >> >
> >> > Yeah, Right!
> >> >
> >> > - What about deaf/blind people?
> >> > - What about those using single channel soundcards? (Jaws won't speak
> >> > while
> >> > the audio clip is playing in this case)
> >> > - What about people using magnification and who have no soundcard? (I
> > bet
> >> > those distorted images are pretty tough to make out for someone using
> >> > something like Lunar)
> >> > - What about someone who may have cognitive difficulties?
> >> > - What about those with dexterity problems?
> >> > - What about someone who just can't really type that quickly?
> >> >
> >> > Hardly 'design for all'. Captchas = bad. I don't know how you would
> > make
> >> > them truly accessible, but the below suggestion is fairly pathetic.
> > There
> >> > must be an alternative solution to the use of Captchas.
> >> >
> >> > Cheers,
> >> >
> >> > Tony
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: "tonysweeney" <tonysweeney1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> > To: "vics" <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> > Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 2:20 AM
> >> > Subject: [vicsireland] Javaa Scripts
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Chicago Defender, IL, USA
> >> >> Friday, February 09, 2007
> >> >>
> >> >> As Web evolves, blind left behind
> >> >>
> >> >> By Tim Spangler
> >> >>
> >> >> The last time Ray Campbell tried to buy Cubs tickets online,
> > Tickets.com
> >> >> asked him to enter the text in a distorted image in order to prove
> >> >> that
> >> >> he
> >> >> was
> >> >> not a robot programmed to automatically buy tickets for scalpers. .
> >> >>
> >> >> The only problem: Campbell couldn't read the text in the image. In
> > fact,
> >> >> he
> >> >> couldn't see it at all - he's been blind his entire life.
> >> >>
> >> >> "All I want to do is buy tickets and I can't do that, because
there's
> >> >> this
> >> >> verification and they have not provided an audio link to it,"
Campbell
> >> >> said.
> >> >>
> >> >> For America's nearly 2 million blind or visually impaired Internet
> > users,
> >> >> problems like these can prevent them from taking advantage of all
the
> > Web
> >> >> has
> >> >> to offer.
> >> >>
> >> >> "The two challenges with Web accessibility are not just being able
to
> >> >> access
> >> >> the site, but being able to use the site," said Leah Gerlach,
director
> > of
> >> >> counseling
> >> >> at the Diecke Center for Vision Rehabilitation in Wheaton.
> >> >>
> >> >> Gerlach said the growing use of multimedia video on Web sites
creates
> >> >> a
> >> >> significant accessibility challenge, saying that Internet video can
> >> >> confuse
> >> >> the
> >> >> screen reading software that blind and visually impaired people use
to
> >> >> browse the Internet.
> >> >>
> >> >> Blind Browsing
> >> >>
> >> >> Blind and visually impaired people use special software called
screen
> >> >> readers that "speak" to them in a synthetic voice what is happening
on
> >> >> the
> >> >> screen.
> >> >>
> >> >> When browsing a Web site, a screen reader examines a page's code and
> >> >> determines how the page is laid out and what links are on it, then
> > reads
> >> >> the
> >> >> content
> >> >> of the page to a user.
> >> >>
> >> >> Screen readers rely on explanatory text, defined by webmasters, to
> >> >> interpret
> >> >> images. Because of this, the World Wide Web Consortium, which sets
> >> >> Internet
> >> >> standards, requires developers to define alternative text for every
> > image
> >> >> on
> >> >> a page.
> >> >>
> >> >> Multimedia content, like Adobe Flash, is unintelligible to screen
> > readers
> >> >> and is skipped entirely when the page is read. Sites that rely
heavily
> > on
> >> >> Flash
> >> >> should be sure to offer accessible, text-only versions of their
pages.
> >> >>
> >> >> Screen reading software uses text-to-speech conversion, machines
that
> >> >> translate on-screen text to Braille or a combination of both to
> >> >> present
> > a
> >> >> Web page
> >> >> to a blind or visually impaired user.
> >> >>
> >> >> The challenges
> >> >>
> >> >> Campbell is a technician at the assistive technology help desk at
the
> > the
> >> >> Chicago Lighthouse, an organization for the blind and visually
> > impaired.
> >> >> A
> >> >> former
> >> >> software engineer at Lucent Technologies, he now takes calls from
> >> >> blind
> >> >> and
> >> >> visually impaired people across the U.S. and Canada and helps them
> > solve
> >> >> computer
> >> >> problems and navigate Web sites.
> >> >>
> >> >> Campbell identified what he said are the Web's three major
> > accessibility
> >> >> problems: graphics without descriptive text, required plug-in
> >> >> installations
> >> >> and
> >> >> visual registration tests, called captchas, an acronym for
"Completely
> >> >> Automated Public Turing Test to Tell Computers and Humans Apart."
> >> >> Captchas
> >> >> are
> >> >> particularly troublesome when it comes to accessibility.
> >> >>
> >> >> Why captchas?
> >> >>
> >> >> Many major sites require users to verify that they are actually
> >> >> human -
> >> >> not
> >> >> automated robots. By presenting the browser with a captcha - an
image
> > of
> >> >> distorted
> >> >> text that is difficult for a computer to decode - and asking the
user
> > to
> >> >> enter the text they see in the image, robots can be blocked from the
> > site
> >> >> while
> >> >> human users who can see the text are given access. Campbell said
that
> >> >> captchas can be made accessible by using audio clips in addition to
> >> >> images
> >> >> to verify
> >> >> users as human. Some sites, like LiveJournal.com, already do this.
> >> >>
> >> >> What works, what doesn't
> >> >>
> >> >> Blogging, a growing Internet phenomenon, is still largely text-based
> > and
> >> >> tends to be more screen reader friendly than other applications.
> >> >>
> >> >> "My experience has taught me that [blogging] is pretty accessible,"
> > said
> >> >> Campbell, who keeps his own blog on LiveJournal.
> >> >>
> >> >> "Screen readers can handle a lot of the current techniques that are
> > being
> >> >> used in Web design," Campbell said, as long as designers take extra
> > care
> >> >> to
> >> >> make
> >> >> their sites accessible. These include avoiding the use of images to
> >> >> display
> >> >> text, providing audio narration for videos and offering text-only
> >> >> versions
> >> >> of pages with multimedia content.
> >> >>
> >> >> As interactive, multimedia Web sites become more prevalent, blind
and
> >> >> visually impaired users might find themselves behind the curve as
> >> >> designers
> >> >> forgo
> >> >> accessible pages for glitzy ones and screen reading software lags
> > behind,
> >> >> said Leah Gerlach at the Diecke Center
> >> >>
> >> >> "We don't drive change. We have to follow it and keep up with it,"
> >> >> Gerlach
> >> >> said. "We're always six months behind cutting edge because we have
to
> >> >> be."
> >> >>
> >> >> Tim Spangler is a reporter for the Medill News Service.
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.chicagodefender.com/page/local.cfm?ArticleID=8439
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > ******************************************************
> >> > This document is strictly confidential and is intended for use by the
> >> > addressee unless otherwise indicated.
> >> >
> >> > This email has been scanned by an external email security system.
> >> >
> >> > Allied Irish Banks
> >> > ******************************************************
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
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> >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >> > Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.36/681 - Release Date:
> >> > 11/02/2007 18:50
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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> >
>
>
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