Hi Tony,
Thank you!
Would it be possible for you and Vics to come up with an alternative?
It is a query only!
Love to hear more responses from listers on the matter.
All the best,
Tony Sweeney.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Murray" <tony@xxxxxxxx>
To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 5:32 PM
Subject: [vicsireland] Captchas
Hi Tony/Cearbhall,
Here is a snippet from the original article Tony posted:
"The only problem: Campbell couldn't read the text in the image. In fact,
he
couldn't see it at all - he's been blind his entire life.
"All I want to do is buy tickets and I can't do that, because there's
this
verification and they have not provided an audio link to it," Campbell
said."
The image referred to here is the Captcha, which prevented our friend
from
buying his tickets. So, they certainly did not assist him while trying
to
carry out his online transaction.
In my first mail, I quoted the article as saying:
"captchas can be made accessible by using audio clips in addition to
images
to verify users as human."
I absolutely disagree with this comment, and I've given my reasons in a
previous mail.
Cearbhall, to quote your mail:
"Society is not organised to react to this change of
mode and "disables" the person's performance by not communicating in the
way
chosen or facilitating alternative ways of moving around."
I absolutely agree. Not the ideal situation. With that in mind, why
should
we be accepting of the visual technology that is Captchas, and why should
we
settle for a very shaky bolt-on solution that doesn't work most of the
time?
To quote you further:
"This approach is not helpful to a person who doesn't want to use the
visual
aspects of a situation. Such a person needs to know what the idea is and
be
given it in a way that can be picked up either aurally or by the use of
tactile systems."
Yes, I agree with that also. The problem here is, many people can not
gather the information displayed by the visual captcha successfully. The
distorted audio file which is sometimes present to accompany a Captcha
does
not serve to bring a clear understanding of what is required of the user,
and in many cases restricts the user from accessing the web site's
service.
My biggest problem is with the use of visual Captchas in general. There
simply has to be an alternative solution, so we are not "disabled" by
this
technology.
Therefore, as a member of a society who pride themselves on working
towards
inclusive design, I would not accept that this Audio alternative to a
Captcha, which may only barely enable a very few members of one set of
disabled people, should be supported or seen as 'a good start'. Visual
Captchas on web sites should not be used. We shouldn't have to rely on
half
thought through add-ons, which only work occasionally and for a small
percentage of disabled people.
Your signature line reads:
"Good design enables - Bad design disables"
Visual Captchas are an example of "bad design", because no viable all
inclusive alternative can be created. There for, Captchas "disable".
Thanks,
Tony
----- Original Message -----
From: "tonysweeney" <tonysweeney1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 4:30 PM
Subject: [vicsireland] Re: Javaa Scripts
> Hi Tony,
> You know I was always brought up to understand that it is a noble and a
> good
> thing for one to apologise.
> I must apologise myself if I took you up wrongly in your opinion but
maybe
> early Mondays maybe are not such a great ideas for sending such
> emails!!
> Now I usually read over very carefully a couple of times articles I
> come
> across that I think would be of interest to fellow listers.
> I do thankfully work and am fairly busy otherwise. It does take up an
> amount
> of my spare time collating such articles; it is not done willy-nilly I
> assure you!
> I sent the article on Captchas more for ideas from people, to see what
> they
> thought! Perhaps I should have mentioned that in a forwarding note!
> Let people have a reasoned debate on issues!
> Captchas did apparently assist that man in that article!
> I am not saying whether I am in favour of them or not!
> I will need to hear and read more on the matter from professionals in
the
> area like yourself and others.
> Is there a policy from Vics on Captchas?
> In the access for all you mentioned, for example I am using a computer
> with
> speech. Now Jaws would be of no use to a deaf-blind person; Don't know
> how
> a person with no arms could use a computer, but I'm sure it is
> possible!
> You know if we all were to wait to have access for all ideally, no
> disabled
> group would get very far on in a lifetime.
> I emphasize I am in favour of access for all!
> Now could we all have a reasoned debate on the matter?
> Perhaps I might even be educated!
> Anyway normal transmission should resume!
> All the best,
> Tony Sweeney.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tony Murray" <tony@xxxxxxxx>
> To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 8:45 PM
> Subject: [vicsireland] Re: Javaa Scripts
>
>
>> Hi Tony,
>>
>> I must apologise. If you felt my negative comments were directed at
you,
>> then let me assure you I never meant them to come across that way.
>>
>> The article, as I said, in my opinion is not a good one. Captchas, by
> their
>> very nature, are a bad idea. As far as I know, there is no real way
>> of
>> having a fully accessible instance of one. If people such as web
> designers,
>> project managers etc read such an article, they may think that having
the
>> additional audible clip is the accepted and fool-proof solution. It
>> is
> not,
>> and I don't think Captchas will ever be truly accessible.
>>
>> My point was, and I do apologise if I didn't put it in the best way I
> could
>> have, creating this bolt-on supposedly acceptable accessibility fix
>> and
>> sticking it on to a technology as a whole, i.e. Captchas, that will
> probably
>> never be usable to many disabled people is not to be encouraged in the
>> least. The whole area is bad news.
>>
>> Given that you didn't initially comment in favour or against the
article,
> I
>> felt I had to. This was to eliminate any ambiguities as regards our
>> position as a society which may arise, especially when someone
>> searches
> our
>> email archives.
>>
>> This is not my list, this is our list. I'd urge you to continue to
>> use
> it;
>> I've told you before that you are a valued contributor.
>>
>> To finish, I will say once more that I'm sorry if I offended you in
>> any
> way.
>> I feel strongly on this subject, as it effects us all as Internet
Users.
> If
>> my language was over the top, I do apologise.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Tony
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "tonysweeney" <tonysweeney1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 3:39 PM
>> Subject: [vicsireland] Re: Javaa Scripts
>>
>>
>> >I feel your reaction to be ____________way over the top
>> > Surely something is better than nothing till we get the inclusivity
>> > "design
>> > For All" we all seek!
>> > Pity you couldn't have given a more reasoned response!
>> > I am not speaking for the article writer but his peace seemed
>> > reasonable
>> > enough under the circumstances.
>> > I doubt that anyone would be so stupid as to think that an article
>> > forwarded to your list would necessarily be the opinion of Vics!
>> > Surely all thoughts and opinions should be discussed with respect
>> > and
>> > in
>> > a
>> > civilized manner!
>> > Why do you not contact the editor and article writer giving your
>> > opinion
>> > there?
>> > You will have no worries about me forwarding articles to your list
>> > in
> the
>> > future because I won't be!_____
>> > I am also seriously considering not renewing my membership when it
>> > is
> due
>> > around again.
>> > Disgusted.
>> > Tony Sweeney.
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Tony Murray" <Tony.G.Murray@xxxxxx>
>> > To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:21 AM
>> > Subject: [vicsireland] Re: Javaa Scripts
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > I don't think the below article is particularly helpful to anyone,
and
>> > it's
>> > message is skewed in my opinion. To be honest, I'd prefer not to
>> > see
> this
>> > kind of stuff posted on our list, as I'd hate to think that VICS
would
>> > support recommendations like the below.
>> >
>> > "captchas can be made accessible by using audio clips in addition to
>> > images
>> > to verify users as human. Some sites, like LiveJournal.com, already
do
>> > this."
>> >
>> > Yeah, Right!
>> >
>> > - What about deaf/blind people?
>> > - What about those using single channel soundcards? (Jaws won't
>> > speak
>> > while
>> > the audio clip is playing in this case)
>> > - What about people using magnification and who have no soundcard?
>> > (I
> bet
>> > those distorted images are pretty tough to make out for someone
>> > using
>> > something like Lunar)
>> > - What about someone who may have cognitive difficulties?
>> > - What about those with dexterity problems?
>> > - What about someone who just can't really type that quickly?
>> >
>> > Hardly 'design for all'. Captchas = bad. I don't know how you
>> > would
> make
>> > them truly accessible, but the below suggestion is fairly pathetic.
> There
>> > must be an alternative solution to the use of Captchas.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > Tony
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "tonysweeney" <tonysweeney1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > To: "vics" <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 2:20 AM
>> > Subject: [vicsireland] Javaa Scripts
>> >
>> >
>> >> Chicago Defender, IL, USA
>> >> Friday, February 09, 2007
>> >>
>> >> As Web evolves, blind left behind
>> >>
>> >> By Tim Spangler
>> >>
>> >> The last time Ray Campbell tried to buy Cubs tickets online,
> Tickets.com
>> >> asked him to enter the text in a distorted image in order to prove
>> >> that
>> >> he
>> >> was
>> >> not a robot programmed to automatically buy tickets for scalpers.
>> >> .
>> >>
>> >> The only problem: Campbell couldn't read the text in the image. In
> fact,
>> >> he
>> >> couldn't see it at all - he's been blind his entire life.
>> >>
>> >> "All I want to do is buy tickets and I can't do that, because
there's
>> >> this
>> >> verification and they have not provided an audio link to it,"
Campbell
>> >> said.
>> >>
>> >> For America's nearly 2 million blind or visually impaired Internet
> users,
>> >> problems like these can prevent them from taking advantage of all
the
> Web
>> >> has
>> >> to offer.
>> >>
>> >> "The two challenges with Web accessibility are not just being able
to
>> >> access
>> >> the site, but being able to use the site," said Leah Gerlach,
director
> of
>> >> counseling
>> >> at the Diecke Center for Vision Rehabilitation in Wheaton.
>> >>
>> >> Gerlach said the growing use of multimedia video on Web sites
creates
>> >> a
>> >> significant accessibility challenge, saying that Internet video can
>> >> confuse
>> >> the
>> >> screen reading software that blind and visually impaired people use
to
>> >> browse the Internet.
>> >>
>> >> Blind Browsing
>> >>
>> >> Blind and visually impaired people use special software called
screen
>> >> readers that "speak" to them in a synthetic voice what is happening
on
>> >> the
>> >> screen.
>> >>
>> >> When browsing a Web site, a screen reader examines a page's code
>> >> and
>> >> determines how the page is laid out and what links are on it, then
> reads
>> >> the
>> >> content
>> >> of the page to a user.
>> >>
>> >> Screen readers rely on explanatory text, defined by webmasters, to
>> >> interpret
>> >> images. Because of this, the World Wide Web Consortium, which sets
>> >> Internet
>> >> standards, requires developers to define alternative text for every
> image
>> >> on
>> >> a page.
>> >>
>> >> Multimedia content, like Adobe Flash, is unintelligible to screen
> readers
>> >> and is skipped entirely when the page is read. Sites that rely
heavily
> on
>> >> Flash
>> >> should be sure to offer accessible, text-only versions of their
pages.
>> >>
>> >> Screen reading software uses text-to-speech conversion, machines
that
>> >> translate on-screen text to Braille or a combination of both to
>> >> present
> a
>> >> Web page
>> >> to a blind or visually impaired user.
>> >>
>> >> The challenges
>> >>
>> >> Campbell is a technician at the assistive technology help desk at
the
> the
>> >> Chicago Lighthouse, an organization for the blind and visually
> impaired.
>> >> A
>> >> former
>> >> software engineer at Lucent Technologies, he now takes calls from
>> >> blind
>> >> and
>> >> visually impaired people across the U.S. and Canada and helps them
> solve
>> >> computer
>> >> problems and navigate Web sites.
>> >>
>> >> Campbell identified what he said are the Web's three major
> accessibility
>> >> problems: graphics without descriptive text, required plug-in
>> >> installations
>> >> and
>> >> visual registration tests, called captchas, an acronym for
"Completely
>> >> Automated Public Turing Test to Tell Computers and Humans Apart."
>> >> Captchas
>> >> are
>> >> particularly troublesome when it comes to accessibility.
>> >>
>> >> Why captchas?
>> >>
>> >> Many major sites require users to verify that they are actually
>> >> human -
>> >> not
>> >> automated robots. By presenting the browser with a captcha - an
image
> of
>> >> distorted
>> >> text that is difficult for a computer to decode - and asking the
user
> to
>> >> enter the text they see in the image, robots can be blocked from
>> >> the
> site
>> >> while
>> >> human users who can see the text are given access. Campbell said
that
>> >> captchas can be made accessible by using audio clips in addition to
>> >> images
>> >> to verify
>> >> users as human. Some sites, like LiveJournal.com, already do this.
>> >>
>> >> What works, what doesn't
>> >>
>> >> Blogging, a growing Internet phenomenon, is still largely
>> >> text-based
> and
>> >> tends to be more screen reader friendly than other applications.
>> >>
>> >> "My experience has taught me that [blogging] is pretty accessible,"
> said
>> >> Campbell, who keeps his own blog on LiveJournal.
>> >>
>> >> "Screen readers can handle a lot of the current techniques that are
> being
>> >> used in Web design," Campbell said, as long as designers take extra
> care
>> >> to
>> >> make
>> >> their sites accessible. These include avoiding the use of images to
>> >> display
>> >> text, providing audio narration for videos and offering text-only
>> >> versions
>> >> of pages with multimedia content.
>> >>
>> >> As interactive, multimedia Web sites become more prevalent, blind
and
>> >> visually impaired users might find themselves behind the curve as
>> >> designers
>> >> forgo
>> >> accessible pages for glitzy ones and screen reading software lags
> behind,
>> >> said Leah Gerlach at the Diecke Center
>> >>
>> >> "We don't drive change. We have to follow it and keep up with it,"
>> >> Gerlach
>> >> said. "We're always six months behind cutting edge because we have
to
>> >> be."
>> >>
>> >> Tim Spangler is a reporter for the Medill News Service.
>> >>
>> >> http://www.chicagodefender.com/page/local.cfm?ArticleID=8439
>> >>
>> >
>> > ******************************************************
>> > This document is strictly confidential and is intended for use by
>> > the
>> > addressee unless otherwise indicated.
>> >
>> > This email has been scanned by an external email security system.
>> >
>> > Allied Irish Banks
>> > ******************************************************
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.36/681 - Release Date:
>> > 11/02/2007 18:50
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.36/681 - Release Date:
> 11/02/2007 18:50
>