[vicsireland] Re: Captchas
- From: Jim Dunleavy <jim.dunleavy@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:32:33 +0000
Hi all,
The W3C has some information about CAPTCHA alternatives.
I think the most promising are the federated or decentralised
identity management systems such as OpenID.
See:
www.w3.org/TR/turingtest
and
www.openid.org
--Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Murray <Tony.G.Murray@xxxxxx>
To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 9:37 AM
Subject: [vicsireland] Re: Captchas
> Hi Tony,
>
> "Would it be possible for you and Vics to come up with an alternative?"
>
> Definitely worth looking at. Sounds like a job for the research group, I
> will raise it at the next committee meeting which will be held next
Tuesday.
> As Flor says, Visual Captchas are very widely used nowadays, but I think
it
> would be worth posting a proposal for an alternative on our site and
mailing
> list... that is, if we can come up with a viable one!
>
> "It is a query only!"
>
> Keep them coming. Member participation and feedback is part of what VICS
> is! Our job as the committee is to work for every VICS member... we can
only
> do this if we get queries like yours.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tony
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tonysweeney" <tonysweeney1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 12:57 AM
> Subject: [vicsireland] Re: Captchas
>
>
> > Hi Tony,
> > Thank you!
> > Would it be possible for you and Vics to come up with an alternative?
> > It is a query only!
> > Love to hear more responses from listers on the matter.
> > All the best,
> > Tony Sweeney.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Tony Murray" <tony@xxxxxxxx>
> > To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 5:32 PM
> > Subject: [vicsireland] Captchas
> >
> >
> >> Hi Tony/Cearbhall,
> >>
> >> Here is a snippet from the original article Tony posted:
> >> "The only problem: Campbell couldn't read the text in the image. In
fact,
> > he
> >> couldn't see it at all - he's been blind his entire life.
> >>
> >> "All I want to do is buy tickets and I can't do that, because there's
> >> this
> >> verification and they have not provided an audio link to it," Campbell
> >> said."
> >>
> >> The image referred to here is the Captcha, which prevented our friend
> >> from
> >> buying his tickets. So, they certainly did not assist him while trying
> >> to
> >> carry out his online transaction.
> >>
> >> In my first mail, I quoted the article as saying:
> >> "captchas can be made accessible by using audio clips in addition to
> > images
> >> to verify users as human."
> >>
> >> I absolutely disagree with this comment, and I've given my reasons in a
> >> previous mail.
> >>
> >> Cearbhall, to quote your mail:
> >> "Society is not organised to react to this change of
> >> mode and "disables" the person's performance by not communicating in
the
> > way
> >> chosen or facilitating alternative ways of moving around."
> >>
> >> I absolutely agree. Not the ideal situation. With that in mind, why
> > should
> >> we be accepting of the visual technology that is Captchas, and why
should
> > we
> >> settle for a very shaky bolt-on solution that doesn't work most of the
> > time?
> >>
> >> To quote you further:
> >> "This approach is not helpful to a person who doesn't want to use the
> > visual
> >> aspects of a situation. Such a person needs to know what the idea is
and
> > be
> >> given it in a way that can be picked up either aurally or by the use of
> >> tactile systems."
> >>
> >> Yes, I agree with that also. The problem here is, many people can not
> >> gather the information displayed by the visual captcha successfully.
The
> >> distorted audio file which is sometimes present to accompany a Captcha
> > does
> >> not serve to bring a clear understanding of what is required of the
user,
> >> and in many cases restricts the user from accessing the web site's
> > service.
> >>
> >> My biggest problem is with the use of visual Captchas in general.
There
> >> simply has to be an alternative solution, so we are not "disabled" by
> >> this
> >> technology.
> >>
> >> Therefore, as a member of a society who pride themselves on working
> > towards
> >> inclusive design, I would not accept that this Audio alternative to a
> >> Captcha, which may only barely enable a very few members of one set of
> >> disabled people, should be supported or seen as 'a good start'. Visual
> >> Captchas on web sites should not be used. We shouldn't have to rely on
> > half
> >> thought through add-ons, which only work occasionally and for a small
> >> percentage of disabled people.
> >>
> >> Your signature line reads:
> >> "Good design enables - Bad design disables"
> >>
> >> Visual Captchas are an example of "bad design", because no viable all
> >> inclusive alternative can be created. There for, Captchas "disable".
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Tony
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "tonysweeney" <tonysweeney1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 4:30 PM
> >> Subject: [vicsireland] Re: Javaa Scripts
> >>
> >>
> >> > Hi Tony,
> >> > You know I was always brought up to understand that it is a noble and
a
> >> > good
> >> > thing for one to apologise.
> >> > I must apologise myself if I took you up wrongly in your opinion but
> > maybe
> >> > early Mondays maybe are not such a great ideas for sending such
> >> > emails!!
> >> > Now I usually read over very carefully a couple of times articles I
> >> > come
> >> > across that I think would be of interest to fellow listers.
> >> > I do thankfully work and am fairly busy otherwise. It does take up an
> >> > amount
> >> > of my spare time collating such articles; it is not done willy-nilly
I
> >> > assure you!
> >> > I sent the article on Captchas more for ideas from people, to see
what
> >> > they
> >> > thought! Perhaps I should have mentioned that in a forwarding note!
> >> > Let people have a reasoned debate on issues!
> >> > Captchas did apparently assist that man in that article!
> >> > I am not saying whether I am in favour of them or not!
> >> > I will need to hear and read more on the matter from professionals in
> > the
> >> > area like yourself and others.
> >> > Is there a policy from Vics on Captchas?
> >> > In the access for all you mentioned, for example I am using a
computer
> >> > with
> >> > speech. Now Jaws would be of no use to a deaf-blind person; Don't
know
> >> > how
> >> > a person with no arms could use a computer, but I'm sure it is
> >> > possible!
> >> > You know if we all were to wait to have access for all ideally, no
> >> > disabled
> >> > group would get very far on in a lifetime.
> >> > I emphasize I am in favour of access for all!
> >> > Now could we all have a reasoned debate on the matter?
> >> > Perhaps I might even be educated!
> >> > Anyway normal transmission should resume!
> >> > All the best,
> >> > Tony Sweeney.
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: "Tony Murray" <tony@xxxxxxxx>
> >> > To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 8:45 PM
> >> > Subject: [vicsireland] Re: Javaa Scripts
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Hi Tony,
> >> >>
> >> >> I must apologise. If you felt my negative comments were directed at
> > you,
> >> >> then let me assure you I never meant them to come across that way.
> >> >>
> >> >> The article, as I said, in my opinion is not a good one. Captchas,
by
> >> > their
> >> >> very nature, are a bad idea. As far as I know, there is no real way
> >> >> of
> >> >> having a fully accessible instance of one. If people such as web
> >> > designers,
> >> >> project managers etc read such an article, they may think that
having
> > the
> >> >> additional audible clip is the accepted and fool-proof solution. It
> >> >> is
> >> > not,
> >> >> and I don't think Captchas will ever be truly accessible.
> >> >>
> >> >> My point was, and I do apologise if I didn't put it in the best way
I
> >> > could
> >> >> have, creating this bolt-on supposedly acceptable accessibility fix
> >> >> and
> >> >> sticking it on to a technology as a whole, i.e. Captchas, that will
> >> > probably
> >> >> never be usable to many disabled people is not to be encouraged in
the
> >> >> least. The whole area is bad news.
> >> >>
> >> >> Given that you didn't initially comment in favour or against the
> > article,
> >> > I
> >> >> felt I had to. This was to eliminate any ambiguities as regards our
> >> >> position as a society which may arise, especially when someone
> >> >> searches
> >> > our
> >> >> email archives.
> >> >>
> >> >> This is not my list, this is our list. I'd urge you to continue to
> >> >> use
> >> > it;
> >> >> I've told you before that you are a valued contributor.
> >> >>
> >> >> To finish, I will say once more that I'm sorry if I offended you in
> >> >> any
> >> > way.
> >> >> I feel strongly on this subject, as it effects us all as Internet
> > Users.
> >> > If
> >> >> my language was over the top, I do apologise.
> >> >>
> >> >> Cheers,
> >> >>
> >> >> Tony
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "tonysweeney" <tonysweeney1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 3:39 PM
> >> >> Subject: [vicsireland] Re: Javaa Scripts
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >I feel your reaction to be ____________way over the top
> >> >> > Surely something is better than nothing till we get the
inclusivity
> >> >> > "design
> >> >> > For All" we all seek!
> >> >> > Pity you couldn't have given a more reasoned response!
> >> >> > I am not speaking for the article writer but his peace seemed
> >> >> > reasonable
> >> >> > enough under the circumstances.
> >> >> > I doubt that anyone would be so stupid as to think that an
article
> >> >> > forwarded to your list would necessarily be the opinion of Vics!
> >> >> > Surely all thoughts and opinions should be discussed with respect
> >> >> > and
> >> >> > in
> >> >> > a
> >> >> > civilized manner!
> >> >> > Why do you not contact the editor and article writer giving your
> >> >> > opinion
> >> >> > there?
> >> >> > You will have no worries about me forwarding articles to your list
> >> >> > in
> >> > the
> >> >> > future because I won't be!_____
> >> >> > I am also seriously considering not renewing my membership when it
> >> >> > is
> >> > due
> >> >> > around again.
> >> >> > Disgusted.
> >> >> > Tony Sweeney.
> >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> > From: "Tony Murray" <Tony.G.Murray@xxxxxx>
> >> >> > To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:21 AM
> >> >> > Subject: [vicsireland] Re: Javaa Scripts
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Hi,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I don't think the below article is particularly helpful to anyone,
> > and
> >> >> > it's
> >> >> > message is skewed in my opinion. To be honest, I'd prefer not to
> >> >> > see
> >> > this
> >> >> > kind of stuff posted on our list, as I'd hate to think that VICS
> > would
> >> >> > support recommendations like the below.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "captchas can be made accessible by using audio clips in addition
to
> >> >> > images
> >> >> > to verify users as human. Some sites, like LiveJournal.com,
already
> > do
> >> >> > this."
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Yeah, Right!
> >> >> >
> >> >> > - What about deaf/blind people?
> >> >> > - What about those using single channel soundcards? (Jaws won't
> >> >> > speak
> >> >> > while
> >> >> > the audio clip is playing in this case)
> >> >> > - What about people using magnification and who have no soundcard?
> >> >> > (I
> >> > bet
> >> >> > those distorted images are pretty tough to make out for someone
> >> >> > using
> >> >> > something like Lunar)
> >> >> > - What about someone who may have cognitive difficulties?
> >> >> > - What about those with dexterity problems?
> >> >> > - What about someone who just can't really type that quickly?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Hardly 'design for all'. Captchas = bad. I don't know how you
> >> >> > would
> >> > make
> >> >> > them truly accessible, but the below suggestion is fairly
pathetic.
> >> > There
> >> >> > must be an alternative solution to the use of Captchas.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Cheers,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Tony
> >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> > From: "tonysweeney" <tonysweeney1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> > To: "vics" <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> > Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 2:20 AM
> >> >> > Subject: [vicsireland] Javaa Scripts
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Chicago Defender, IL, USA
> >> >> >> Friday, February 09, 2007
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> As Web evolves, blind left behind
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> By Tim Spangler
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The last time Ray Campbell tried to buy Cubs tickets online,
> >> > Tickets.com
> >> >> >> asked him to enter the text in a distorted image in order to
prove
> >> >> >> that
> >> >> >> he
> >> >> >> was
> >> >> >> not a robot programmed to automatically buy tickets for
scalpers.
> >> >> >> .
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The only problem: Campbell couldn't read the text in the image.
In
> >> > fact,
> >> >> >> he
> >> >> >> couldn't see it at all - he's been blind his entire life.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> "All I want to do is buy tickets and I can't do that, because
> > there's
> >> >> >> this
> >> >> >> verification and they have not provided an audio link to it,"
> > Campbell
> >> >> >> said.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> For America's nearly 2 million blind or visually impaired
Internet
> >> > users,
> >> >> >> problems like these can prevent them from taking advantage of all
> > the
> >> > Web
> >> >> >> has
> >> >> >> to offer.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> "The two challenges with Web accessibility are not just being
able
> > to
> >> >> >> access
> >> >> >> the site, but being able to use the site," said Leah Gerlach,
> > director
> >> > of
> >> >> >> counseling
> >> >> >> at the Diecke Center for Vision Rehabilitation in Wheaton.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Gerlach said the growing use of multimedia video on Web sites
> > creates
> >> >> >> a
> >> >> >> significant accessibility challenge, saying that Internet video
can
> >> >> >> confuse
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> screen reading software that blind and visually impaired people
use
> > to
> >> >> >> browse the Internet.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Blind Browsing
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Blind and visually impaired people use special software called
> > screen
> >> >> >> readers that "speak" to them in a synthetic voice what is
happening
> > on
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> screen.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> When browsing a Web site, a screen reader examines a page's code
> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> determines how the page is laid out and what links are on it,
then
> >> > reads
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> content
> >> >> >> of the page to a user.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Screen readers rely on explanatory text, defined by webmasters,
to
> >> >> >> interpret
> >> >> >> images. Because of this, the World Wide Web Consortium, which
sets
> >> >> >> Internet
> >> >> >> standards, requires developers to define alternative text for
every
> >> > image
> >> >> >> on
> >> >> >> a page.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Multimedia content, like Adobe Flash, is unintelligible to screen
> >> > readers
> >> >> >> and is skipped entirely when the page is read. Sites that rely
> > heavily
> >> > on
> >> >> >> Flash
> >> >> >> should be sure to offer accessible, text-only versions of their
> > pages.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Screen reading software uses text-to-speech conversion, machines
> > that
> >> >> >> translate on-screen text to Braille or a combination of both to
> >> >> >> present
> >> > a
> >> >> >> Web page
> >> >> >> to a blind or visually impaired user.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The challenges
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Campbell is a technician at the assistive technology help desk at
> > the
> >> > the
> >> >> >> Chicago Lighthouse, an organization for the blind and visually
> >> > impaired.
> >> >> >> A
> >> >> >> former
> >> >> >> software engineer at Lucent Technologies, he now takes calls from
> >> >> >> blind
> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> visually impaired people across the U.S. and Canada and helps
them
> >> > solve
> >> >> >> computer
> >> >> >> problems and navigate Web sites.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Campbell identified what he said are the Web's three major
> >> > accessibility
> >> >> >> problems: graphics without descriptive text, required plug-in
> >> >> >> installations
> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> visual registration tests, called captchas, an acronym for
> > "Completely
> >> >> >> Automated Public Turing Test to Tell Computers and Humans Apart."
> >> >> >> Captchas
> >> >> >> are
> >> >> >> particularly troublesome when it comes to accessibility.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Why captchas?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Many major sites require users to verify that they are actually
> >> >> >> human -
> >> >> >> not
> >> >> >> automated robots. By presenting the browser with a captcha - an
> > image
> >> > of
> >> >> >> distorted
> >> >> >> text that is difficult for a computer to decode - and asking the
> > user
> >> > to
> >> >> >> enter the text they see in the image, robots can be blocked from
> >> >> >> the
> >> > site
> >> >> >> while
> >> >> >> human users who can see the text are given access. Campbell said
> > that
> >> >> >> captchas can be made accessible by using audio clips in addition
to
> >> >> >> images
> >> >> >> to verify
> >> >> >> users as human. Some sites, like LiveJournal.com, already do
this.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> What works, what doesn't
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Blogging, a growing Internet phenomenon, is still largely
> >> >> >> text-based
> >> > and
> >> >> >> tends to be more screen reader friendly than other applications.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> "My experience has taught me that [blogging] is pretty
accessible,"
> >> > said
> >> >> >> Campbell, who keeps his own blog on LiveJournal.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> "Screen readers can handle a lot of the current techniques that
are
> >> > being
> >> >> >> used in Web design," Campbell said, as long as designers take
extra
> >> > care
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> make
> >> >> >> their sites accessible. These include avoiding the use of images
to
> >> >> >> display
> >> >> >> text, providing audio narration for videos and offering text-only
> >> >> >> versions
> >> >> >> of pages with multimedia content.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> As interactive, multimedia Web sites become more prevalent, blind
> > and
> >> >> >> visually impaired users might find themselves behind the curve as
> >> >> >> designers
> >> >> >> forgo
> >> >> >> accessible pages for glitzy ones and screen reading software lags
> >> > behind,
> >> >> >> said Leah Gerlach at the Diecke Center
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> "We don't drive change. We have to follow it and keep up with
it,"
> >> >> >> Gerlach
> >> >> >> said. "We're always six months behind cutting edge because we
have
> > to
> >> >> >> be."
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Tim Spangler is a reporter for the Medill News Service.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> http://www.chicagodefender.com/page/local.cfm?ArticleID=8439
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ******************************************************
> >> >> > This document is strictly confidential and is intended for use by
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > addressee unless otherwise indicated.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > This email has been scanned by an external email security system.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Allied Irish Banks
> >> >> > ******************************************************
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> >> >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >> >> > Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.36/681 - Release Date:
> >> >> > 11/02/2007 18:50
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >> > Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.36/681 - Release Date:
> >> > 11/02/2007 18:50
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> ******************************************************
> This document is strictly confidential and is intended for use by the
addressee unless otherwise indicated.
>
> This email has been scanned by an external email security system.
>
> Allied Irish Banks
> ******************************************************
>
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