Hi Tony, You know I was always brought up to understand that it is a noble and a good thing for one to apologise. I must apologise myself if I took you up wrongly in your opinion but maybe early Mondays maybe are not such a great ideas for sending such emails!! Now I usually read over very carefully a couple of times articles I come across that I think would be of interest to fellow listers. I do thankfully work and am fairly busy otherwise. It does take up an amount of my spare time collating such articles; it is not done willy-nilly I assure you! I sent the article on Captchas more for ideas from people, to see what they thought! Perhaps I should have mentioned that in a forwarding note! Let people have a reasoned debate on issues! Captchas did apparently assist that man in that article! I am not saying whether I am in favour of them or not! I will need to hear and read more on the matter from professionals in the area like yourself and others. Is there a policy from Vics on Captchas? In the access for all you mentioned, for example I am using a computer with speech. Now Jaws would be of no use to a deaf-blind person; Don't know how a person with no arms could use a computer, but I'm sure it is possible! You know if we all were to wait to have access for all ideally, no disabled group would get very far on in a lifetime. I emphasize I am in favour of access for all! Now could we all have a reasoned debate on the matter? Perhaps I might even be educated! Anyway normal transmission should resume! All the best, Tony Sweeney. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Murray" <tony@xxxxxxxx> To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 8:45 PM Subject: [vicsireland] Re: Javaa Scripts > Hi Tony, > > I must apologise. If you felt my negative comments were directed at you, > then let me assure you I never meant them to come across that way. > > The article, as I said, in my opinion is not a good one. Captchas, by their > very nature, are a bad idea. As far as I know, there is no real way of > having a fully accessible instance of one. If people such as web designers, > project managers etc read such an article, they may think that having the > additional audible clip is the accepted and fool-proof solution. It is not, > and I don't think Captchas will ever be truly accessible. > > My point was, and I do apologise if I didn't put it in the best way I could > have, creating this bolt-on supposedly acceptable accessibility fix and > sticking it on to a technology as a whole, i.e. Captchas, that will probably > never be usable to many disabled people is not to be encouraged in the > least. The whole area is bad news. > > Given that you didn't initially comment in favour or against the article, I > felt I had to. This was to eliminate any ambiguities as regards our > position as a society which may arise, especially when someone searches our > email archives. > > This is not my list, this is our list. I'd urge you to continue to use it; > I've told you before that you are a valued contributor. > > To finish, I will say once more that I'm sorry if I offended you in any way. > I feel strongly on this subject, as it effects us all as Internet Users. If > my language was over the top, I do apologise. > > Cheers, > > Tony > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "tonysweeney" <tonysweeney1@xxxxxxxxxxx> > To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 3:39 PM > Subject: [vicsireland] Re: Javaa Scripts > > > >I feel your reaction to be ____________way over the top > > Surely something is better than nothing till we get the inclusivity > > "design > > For All" we all seek! > > Pity you couldn't have given a more reasoned response! > > I am not speaking for the article writer but his peace seemed reasonable > > enough under the circumstances. > > I doubt that anyone would be so stupid as to think that an article > > forwarded to your list would necessarily be the opinion of Vics! > > Surely all thoughts and opinions should be discussed with respect and in > > a > > civilized manner! > > Why do you not contact the editor and article writer giving your opinion > > there? > > You will have no worries about me forwarding articles to your list in the > > future because I won't be!_____ > > I am also seriously considering not renewing my membership when it is due > > around again. > > Disgusted. > > Tony Sweeney. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Tony Murray" <Tony.G.Murray@xxxxxx> > > To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:21 AM > > Subject: [vicsireland] Re: Javaa Scripts > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I don't think the below article is particularly helpful to anyone, and > > it's > > message is skewed in my opinion. To be honest, I'd prefer not to see this > > kind of stuff posted on our list, as I'd hate to think that VICS would > > support recommendations like the below. > > > > "captchas can be made accessible by using audio clips in addition to > > images > > to verify users as human. Some sites, like LiveJournal.com, already do > > this." > > > > Yeah, Right! > > > > - What about deaf/blind people? > > - What about those using single channel soundcards? (Jaws won't speak > > while > > the audio clip is playing in this case) > > - What about people using magnification and who have no soundcard? (I bet > > those distorted images are pretty tough to make out for someone using > > something like Lunar) > > - What about someone who may have cognitive difficulties? > > - What about those with dexterity problems? > > - What about someone who just can't really type that quickly? > > > > Hardly 'design for all'. Captchas = bad. I don't know how you would make > > them truly accessible, but the below suggestion is fairly pathetic. There > > must be an alternative solution to the use of Captchas. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Tony > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "tonysweeney" <tonysweeney1@xxxxxxxxxxx> > > To: "vics" <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 2:20 AM > > Subject: [vicsireland] Javaa Scripts > > > > > >> Chicago Defender, IL, USA > >> Friday, February 09, 2007 > >> > >> As Web evolves, blind left behind > >> > >> By Tim Spangler > >> > >> The last time Ray Campbell tried to buy Cubs tickets online, Tickets.com > >> asked him to enter the text in a distorted image in order to prove that > >> he > >> was > >> not a robot programmed to automatically buy tickets for scalpers. . > >> > >> The only problem: Campbell couldn't read the text in the image. In fact, > >> he > >> couldn't see it at all - he's been blind his entire life. > >> > >> "All I want to do is buy tickets and I can't do that, because there's > >> this > >> verification and they have not provided an audio link to it," Campbell > >> said. > >> > >> For America's nearly 2 million blind or visually impaired Internet users, > >> problems like these can prevent them from taking advantage of all the Web > >> has > >> to offer. > >> > >> "The two challenges with Web accessibility are not just being able to > >> access > >> the site, but being able to use the site," said Leah Gerlach, director of > >> counseling > >> at the Diecke Center for Vision Rehabilitation in Wheaton. > >> > >> Gerlach said the growing use of multimedia video on Web sites creates a > >> significant accessibility challenge, saying that Internet video can > >> confuse > >> the > >> screen reading software that blind and visually impaired people use to > >> browse the Internet. > >> > >> Blind Browsing > >> > >> Blind and visually impaired people use special software called screen > >> readers that "speak" to them in a synthetic voice what is happening on > >> the > >> screen. > >> > >> When browsing a Web site, a screen reader examines a page's code and > >> determines how the page is laid out and what links are on it, then reads > >> the > >> content > >> of the page to a user. > >> > >> Screen readers rely on explanatory text, defined by webmasters, to > >> interpret > >> images. Because of this, the World Wide Web Consortium, which sets > >> Internet > >> standards, requires developers to define alternative text for every image > >> on > >> a page. > >> > >> Multimedia content, like Adobe Flash, is unintelligible to screen readers > >> and is skipped entirely when the page is read. Sites that rely heavily on > >> Flash > >> should be sure to offer accessible, text-only versions of their pages. > >> > >> Screen reading software uses text-to-speech conversion, machines that > >> translate on-screen text to Braille or a combination of both to present a > >> Web page > >> to a blind or visually impaired user. > >> > >> The challenges > >> > >> Campbell is a technician at the assistive technology help desk at the the > >> Chicago Lighthouse, an organization for the blind and visually impaired. > >> A > >> former > >> software engineer at Lucent Technologies, he now takes calls from blind > >> and > >> visually impaired people across the U.S. and Canada and helps them solve > >> computer > >> problems and navigate Web sites. > >> > >> Campbell identified what he said are the Web's three major accessibility > >> problems: graphics without descriptive text, required plug-in > >> installations > >> and > >> visual registration tests, called captchas, an acronym for "Completely > >> Automated Public Turing Test to Tell Computers and Humans Apart." > >> Captchas > >> are > >> particularly troublesome when it comes to accessibility. > >> > >> Why captchas? > >> > >> Many major sites require users to verify that they are actually human - > >> not > >> automated robots. By presenting the browser with a captcha - an image of > >> distorted > >> text that is difficult for a computer to decode - and asking the user to > >> enter the text they see in the image, robots can be blocked from the site > >> while > >> human users who can see the text are given access. Campbell said that > >> captchas can be made accessible by using audio clips in addition to > >> images > >> to verify > >> users as human. Some sites, like LiveJournal.com, already do this. > >> > >> What works, what doesn't > >> > >> Blogging, a growing Internet phenomenon, is still largely text-based and > >> tends to be more screen reader friendly than other applications. > >> > >> "My experience has taught me that [blogging] is pretty accessible," said > >> Campbell, who keeps his own blog on LiveJournal. > >> > >> "Screen readers can handle a lot of the current techniques that are being > >> used in Web design," Campbell said, as long as designers take extra care > >> to > >> make > >> their sites accessible. These include avoiding the use of images to > >> display > >> text, providing audio narration for videos and offering text-only > >> versions > >> of pages with multimedia content. > >> > >> As interactive, multimedia Web sites become more prevalent, blind and > >> visually impaired users might find themselves behind the curve as > >> designers > >> forgo > >> accessible pages for glitzy ones and screen reading software lags behind, > >> said Leah Gerlach at the Diecke Center > >> > >> "We don't drive change. We have to follow it and keep up with it," > >> Gerlach > >> said. "We're always six months behind cutting edge because we have to > >> be." > >> > >> Tim Spangler is a reporter for the Medill News Service. > >> > >> http://www.chicagodefender.com/page/local.cfm?ArticleID=8439 > >> > > > > ****************************************************** > > This document is strictly confidential and is intended for use by the > > addressee unless otherwise indicated. > > > > This email has been scanned by an external email security system. > > > > Allied Irish Banks > > ****************************************************** > > > > > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.36/681 - Release Date: > > 11/02/2007 18:50 > > > >