[access-uk] Re: More on KNFB reader for phones
- From: "Ankers, Dave (UK)" <Dave.Ankers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 08:13:41 -0000
Well Ray, at the end of the day, it's a piece of software, and what do we know
about that, well for one thing, some bright spark out there will be able to
crack it's security and make illegal copies. £1080, no more like £4! and will
we feel guilty? well does the manufacturer feel guilty, charging us so much?
Dave
Dave, there's little doubt in my mind that there's certainly more elasticity in
the pricing of these products than the established suppliers and distributors
would have us believe.
Mind youth pricing of software so it is said by some economists is very
difficult to arrive at and in the end it may well be much more a guess at what
the market will stand, rather than factoring in every person hour expended in
the writing of it. This said, I think a tight little clique of
suppliers/distributors have arrived long ago at the conclusion that restricting
the market by price and whopping margins makes it far less like hard work to
sell in the numbers they do rather than consider expanding the volume of the
market by dropping prices. Given that subsidies fall where they do, work and
education and maybe some health budgets, and that enough newly VI people are
able to fork out considerable parts of their life savings, then that's the
areas where least effort can be expended for high margin based returns..
Interesting links too between private enterprise in the US and the not for
profits, such as NFB. NFB for sure has a stake in this venture and seek a
return seemingly every bit as much as the developers and distributors, in
benefiting their members; And who knows how much
they are getting on each piece of software sold? Seek no further
for why the price is set so high.
Steve Nutt revealing of what an alternative to KNFB software can do does make
me pause to wonder exactly how original the Kertzviele software is, but I
really don't know. It seems the real innovation here is in object recognition,
orientation correction and maybe compensating for curvature - but on the last
Steve and others seem to be saying the opposition, if I might call it that -
has a definite advantage. So is this less of an innovation than we were lead
to believe? (Serious question). Certainly the logic underlying the software
has involved much work; but rather less work involved in porting it to
different platforms, I imagine.
As things stand then, we have a device, or now software, that stands to
benefit a smallish number of VI people who happen to be well healed, or else
are prepared to support a considerable level of debt to succumb to the, to me,
humiliating 'detestable ransom' being demanded.
From Ray
I can be contacted off-list at:
mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
Ankers, Dave (UK)
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: More on KNFB reader for phones
Lynda,
If they made it cheaper, they'd sell more. Funny they never seen to
think that way. Obviously there are development costs to be
recouped,
but if hardly anyone buys the thing due to high cost, then what's the point,
after all the biggest cost here is software, and they are charging more for it
than Freedom Scientific charge for JAWS!
Maybe if they put the feelers out to see how many of us are interested in
buying one, and then set the price according to that, then maybe to price would
come down. What naf's me off with this one is that once the software has been
mastered, there's not likely to be many changes made in the future, unlike
JAWS, which has to keep up with what Microsoft throw at us.
Dave
Ray you have no idea what it feels like to be held to ransom at every turn -
with products to "aid" disability I mean. I try to keep my own purchases to a
minimum but do require certain adaptive products to make life easier. It is a
constant battle though, not only to find the products I need, but also at a
price I can afford. Sure help is available from charities but that is a
minefield in itself as people on this list know... So it's a case of paying up
and looking happy about it. I suppose the case firms use to justify high prices
for adaptive technology/products is its comparative scale. The nature of
production means that greater numbers equals cheaper costs. So those of us who
need to use items that only have relatively few consumers have to pay the price
for that. I detest it, believe me, and every time it happens I feel I'm being
ripped off, but it's hard to imagine a different economic rule.
All the best.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray's Home" <rays-home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 8:28 PM
Subject: [access-uk] Re: More on KNFB reader for phones
> hardly know who and what to reply to on this thread, (smile)!
>
> Let's complicate it further still. Why not a download of the
> software? Were that possible none of the arguments about shipping
> costs, insurance, or possible snagging by customs should apply.
Sure,
> if a download were to be made available, which I'm certain won't
> happen, some sort of UK and/or Euro charge would have to be added.
> Where's the problem in that though, given that other US software
> vendors manage to get their heads round it? Still, commercial self
> interest and even greed will se to it that we don't get such a
logical
> solution to the software only option.
>
> I believe that we would find that if some consumer organisation or
the
> dear old Beeb were to get their investigative teeth into this issue
of
> over pricing of Uk distribution then we'd find we as VI people have
a
> good deal in common with other disabled people with different needs
> regarding this laid-back attitude of let it rip on the part of
> distributors and resellers here. It seems a lazy bone idle way of
> earning a living to me simply to wind up prices to the level that
they
> drag in what ever the vendor think they should be getting. Far
better
> if they devoted their efforts towards so called 'service' and
genuine,
> high quality training and support than a simple one off take the
money
> and run service we all too often end up with. Why are disability
> products and services so immune from regulation and investigation by
> those who devote so much time to the price of car imports and the
> like?
>
> Please note too, I'm not questioning the need of developers to earn
a
> return, but rather the smart arse way in which this product is
> channelled in distribution through one distributor where price
fixing
> and lack of accountability to anyone, except maybe private share
> holders, is entirely lacking.
>
> I might also add, maybe unfashionably, that our beloved charities
are
> too taken with playing 'business' to consider an a subsidy or even a
> cheap loan to make such an obviously enabling piece of tech more
> widely available.
>
> The US launch did suggest to me that the audience was stuffed with
> more than a few NFB members, Ms. Kendrick being one of those. I'll
> leave it as an open question as to the American NfB's role in
> financing and getting this valuable innovation onto the agenda, but we
> do have a potentially, maybe actually, rather murky if not mucky
> relationship
of
> charity and business and the Lord only knows whether anyone will get
> around to investigating that one!
>
>
>
> From Ray
> I can be contacted off-list at:
> mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Steve Nutt
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: More on KNFB reader for phones
>
>
> Hi Gary,
>
> Restriction is the right word here. No-one can resell KNFB Readers
in
> this
> country, except S and S, so the pricing is then fixed. If KNFB
would
> open
> it up to other resellers, it could get more interesting.
>
> All the best
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Gary Robinson
> Sent: Sunday 3 February 2008 11:38
> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: More on KNFB reader for phones
>
> Hi Ray,
>
> yes I must admit it's almost worth downloading just to listen to the
> audience, thought it was a warm up for a Jerry Springer show!
> Certainly
> isn't like that at Sight Village!
> So far as the cost of the software in the UK is concerned retailers
> will charge whatever they think they can get away with and in a single
> product marketplace where the retail outlets are tightly controlled by
> the supplier then they can more or less do what they like.
> Two things strike me about the UK market in access technology, one
is
> why
> there is no "bulk buying" by not for profit organizations and
secondly
> why
> we haven't seen any evidence of Office of fair trading/DTI
> investigations into the restrictions which overseas suppliers impose
> on European distributors/retailers into how they can sell the product.
> I
suspect
> this
> latter point is behind much of the problem and I must admit that
given
> the
> American NFB involvement in this product I am surprised it is
> happening in this case.
> Don't get me wrong, retailers must make a reasonable profit, on the
> whole I think commercial retailers do a better job than some of the
> not for profit organizations as they tend to be more "real world"
> orientated, but
we
> seem
> to be stuck in a low volume high price market place which is in
itself
> regressive.
> I don't entirely agree with those who attempt to justify the high
> prices by saying its a small market. The size of the market is in my
> mind artificially reduced by the high cost of the products which puts
> off many potential buyers or indeed charitable organizations who say
> not unreasonably "how can we justify spending so much money on helping
> just one individual".
>
>
> Gary
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ray's Home" <rays-home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 12:53 AM
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: More on KNFB reader for phones
>
>
>> Well, I've heard all 68 minutes or so of the presentation on the
> KNFB
>> embedded cell phone reader, and the listening is interesting for
> more
>> than the obvious reasons. Before I say more, some quick jump to
>> points might be good for those who cannot waite to get to the meat.
>>
>> 23 minutes in givbes you Ray Kurtzveil's intro and future gazing -
> and
>> he's known as a futureologist. Things like image and object
>> recognition improvements, including, he claims, faces.
>>
>> thirty minutes in or so, main presentation of what the present
>> software does, and demos of it working on text, to tremendous
> rapture
>> by the audience.
>>
>> 50 minutes: Question time, including cost of software and phone
> etc.
>> and where Americans can buy.
>>
>> Speaking mostly from emory interesting points are the reader will
> work
>> in a phone without a screen reader, and one that's not activated.
>> Very good Screen enlargement is also there too for those with some
>> sight,. Good help and keyboard guidance built-in, and presenter
>> believes the reader software should be usable with very minimal
>> training for many if not most people.
>>
>> The phone itself (Nokia n82) measures 4" x 2" x1" thick, and weighs
> in
>> at 4 oz.in Its said to be very tacktile and the keys more
>> identifiable than many. Sells for $500 or less in the US. Has
> built
>> in GPS MP3 player, and high quality camera of course. I say all
> this
>> to give some idea of what those fortunate enough to have the dosh
> will
>> get in the phone itself.
>>
>> The software, to be much improved on, turns out to cost $1595.00 in
>> the US. Now, here's where we come to that pricing issue again.
> that
>> would equate to a straight UK conversionof less than ?800.00. So,
> why
>> cannot we have it for less than ?100.00? Say ?950.00 for reading
>> anywhere! What a sales point that could be for those who can push
> the
>> poat out? AS opposed to rather more than that, seemingly.
>>
>> Not sure a UK audience or consumers are going to be quite so
> raptured
>> and take the message to the country as they're encouaged to do in
> the
>> US! The demo or presentation indeed had more the flavour of a
>> revivalist meeting, with sounding horn, and loads of shrieking and
>> applause. Maybe a sort of primary? Not without good reason!
>>
>> I only wish potential UK buyers had as much to shout about. AS it
> is
>> the software, as I say, is going for $1595.00, so God knows what
the
>> 37 dealers there actually pay for it. Or what our sole distributer
>> pays for it, come to that. I'll bet is less than $1595.00. Okay,
> so
>> business is about profit; yes, I've got that message. When does
>> profit turn to greed and extortion? Sorry folks, but yes, you can
>> have a marvel of a device here, which can only get better. You'll
> pay
>> much more dearly for it than folks across the Atlantic. Unlike
them
>> too, you won't be accessing a 3 per cent loan to help buy it. That
> in
>> itself would be a good idea, but not sure why anyone should help
>> bolster an already ludicrus profit margin.
>>
>> Those remarks aside, I do urge anyone who's not heard the launch of
>> the KNFB cell phone reader to go on over to:
>>
>> http://www.blindbargains.com/redirect.php?redirect=2614
>>
>> And download or simply listen to the file.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> From Ray
>> I can be contacted off-list at:
>> mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> Steve Nutt
>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: More on KNFB reader for phones
>>
>>
>> Hi Ray,
>>
>> Well James Everson of Sight And Sound is on this list, so I would
be
>> very
>> interested in his comments on this. As a reseller of adaptive
tech,
> I
>> too
>> feel this is overpricing, even allowing for overheads.
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> Ray's Home
>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: More on KNFB reader for phones
>>
>> Paul, the 'over-inflated' UK price is more worthy of a post from
me!
>> (smile).
>>
>> Think the difference is three or four hundred quid! Presume
there's
>> no
>> training being offered if you buy the software alone, as surely
some
>> will
>> want to do. So, where exactly is the support and whatever in that?
>> Sure
>> many would like to pay rather less than a thousand quid for the
>> software, if only they could!
>>
>> Wouldn't be so concerned if this was more obviously another leaning
> on
>> Access to work provision, but we're talking enhancing of dailly
> living
>> here.
>> This makes it look very like extortion to me.
>>
>> I'd dearly like to see a defence of this, but as we often say here,
>> I'm not holding my breath!
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> From Ray
>> I can be contacted off-list at:
>> mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> Paul Leake
>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: More on KNFB reader for phones
>>
>>
>> an interesting presentation and an intention to continue to develop
>> the product for the future. Pity that the u k price seems over
>> inflated though!
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> paul.leake@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 5:51 PM
>> Subject: [access-uk] More on KNFB reader for phones
>>
>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> Take a look, or should I say a listen, to this file. You can
>> download it
>>> from:-
>>>
>>> http://www.blindbargains.com/redirect.php?redirect=2614
>>>
>>> All the best
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