[access-uk] Re: iPod shuffle ready to go?
- From: "Ray's Home" <rays-home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 11:48:27 +0100
Damon. Thanks for putting me right about VAT and audio books. Seems a good
case for a campaign around zero rating for consistency with print books. By
the way, has anyone else noticed that often the CD version of an abridged book
is shorter than the cassette one?
I've brought up the subject of MP3 as a format for audio books before here, and
it seems that the Beeb and other publishers are becoming interested, gradually.
The big bookshop chains too. This would bring down the cost of production and
packaging. It still remains to be seen though whether such moves would
increase the market for audio books; but I'm sure their is a good deal of room
for growth in this area. Don't forget though that a large part of the expense
of production of high quality audio books is in production: paying equity
rates to readers; editing, paying copyright and all the paperwork that goes
with those things. So, all that said, the demand for audio books may still be
a decidedly finite market compared to print.
DLA, as you say Justin is a muddy mine field to negotiate. The care component
for us has been won on the basis of social inclusion amongst other things, at
least by my limited understanding of the issue. It could, and should be argued
that access to print media by whatever means is an extra expense which should
count. That said, and especially where more technical educational material is
concerned, I'd say that Government support of grants for equipment is one way
to go. The other is removal of obstacles to gaining permission for copyright
clearance etc.
Ray
Personal emails: Email me at
mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx
----- Original Message -----
From: "Damon" <damon.rose@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 4:54 PM
Subject: [access-uk] Re: iPod shuffle ready to go?
> Ray, quite a few things here.
>
> 1: you pay VAT on audio books, you don't on print books. Were you aware of
> this?
>
> 2: In the future if audio books were put onto just one disk in, say, mp3
> form, that would mean less packaging and disks because it would just fit on
> the one disk. In theory.
>
> 3: When seeking equality in the area of books, everyone is looking towards
> government for a solution, not expecting businesses to cough up.
>
> ...Damon
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ray's Home" <rays-home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 12:13 PM
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: iPod shuffle ready to go?
>
>
>> Just two short points:
>>
>> 1. I doubt that audio books will ever be near the price point of print
> books. Especially when you consider that many best sellers are sold in
> three for the price of two deals. Thus, you can pick up three paperbakcs
> for fifteen sixteen quid or so.
>>
>> 2. What's DLA for? OK, it isn't that much I know, but surely it goes
> some way toward compensating for the higher price of visual impairment.
> This is just such a case.
>>
>> I'm against any business being called on to be 'charitable'. Businesss is
> business, thilanthropy. Ust as well when you look at 'our' (laugh) RNIB.
>> Ray
>>
>> Personal emails: Email me at
>> mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Damon" <damon.rose@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 6:00 AM
>> Subject: [access-uk] Re: iPod shuffle ready to go?
>>
>>
>> > 70% of blind men are unemployed tho. 90% of blind women ... according to
> the
>> > last stats I saw. Hence books should be available at a reasonable
> price.
>> >
>> > Anyhoo
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Angel" <angel238@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 10:16 PM
>> > Subject: [access-uk] Re: iPod shuffle ready to go?
>> >
>> >
>> >> Not necessarily. A blind person must be especially creative when
> looking
>> >> for employment as many jobs are closed to him for one reason or other.
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Damon Rose" <damon.rose@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 10:57 AM
>> >> Subject: [access-uk] Re: iPod shuffle ready to go?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Blindness is also synonymous with poverty.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf
>> >> > Of Angel
>> >> > Sent: 15 April 2005 15:54
>> >> > To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > Subject: [access-uk] Re: iPod shuffle ready to go?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > I agree, but blindness is synonymous with expensive, and
> inconvenient.
>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > From: "Tyrer, Jonathan" <Jonathan.Tyrer@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> > To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> > Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 4:30 AM
>> >> > Subject: [access-uk] Re: iPod shuffle ready to go?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > > I have no problem paying for books - book sharing isn't about
> getting
>> >> > > free
>> >> > books. What really pisses me off though is having to spend three
>> >> > bleeding hours scanning the bugger in before I can read it!
>> >> > >
>> >> > > JT
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > > From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On
>> >> > > Behalf Of Ray's Home
>> >> > > Sent: 14 April 2005 16:34
>> >> > > To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > > Subject: [access-uk] Re: iPod shuffle ready to go?
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Well Angel, if I might join in, lending libraries here in the UK
> are a
>> >> > public service, well what's left of them! The notion of public
> service
>> >> > has taken quite a pasting here in the last quarter century so, not
>> >> > surprisingly, you are often hard pressed to find the latest books
> there.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > As for 'rational' arguments for stealing, well certain theologians
> in
>> >> > > the
>> >> > middle ages did argue that stealing food for survival was OK, just
> as
>> >> > much as you needed to stay alive that is. I guess Daman is arguing
> for
>> >> > the right for food for the soul, as man/woman does not live by food
>> >> > alone.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I can only say that what's left of my reason is down to a lot of
>> >> > > reading,
>> >> > much of it on tape, when I was very down and depressed. The sheer
> farce
>> >> > of trying to study at a higher level without anything approaching the
>> >> > breadth of material available to other students has to be gone
> through
>> >> > to be believed.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I still have just enough sight to buy books in print occasionally
> and
>> >> > > its
>> >> > certainly a sad fact that your average high street bookshop these
> days
>> >> > has many times more books available to buy than we get our hands on
> in
>> >> > all the various formats. I just wonder how much those here would be
>> >> > prepared to pay to own a copy if that were an option. Seems to me
> that
>> >> > unabridged audio books are always going to be at a premium price
>> >> > although I do not see that the margin has to be as high as it is now.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Obviously, this is a very involved subject when you get down to it.
> I
>> >> > just wonder how greater percentage of text material can and will be
> made
>> >> > available, and more to the point, how? Taking the risk of
> resurrecting
>> >> > the format wars here, Braille versus audio versus computer etc. just
> how
>> >> > will the extreme demand for stuff in whatever format we want hold up
> to
>> >> > reality?
>> >> > >
>> >> > > By the way, I've shortened the whole message here as, apart from
>> >> > > wondering
>> >> > offoff the original topic, I feared it would excede the file size
>> >> > allowed on this list!
>> >> > > Ray
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Personal emails: Email me at
>> >> > > mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx
>> >> > >
>> >> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > > From: "Angel"
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > Libraries give books for free because of their community
> obligation,
>> >> >
>> >> > > > not because of a human rite any may have. Have you tried to get
> the
>> >> >
>> >> > > > books
>> >> > you
>> >> > > > seek from sources like Audible.com. The people there have gone
> out
>> >> > > > of
>> >> > their
>> >> > > > way to make their site and books accessible to us. There is no
>> >> > > > rational explanation for stealing.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > > > From: "Damon Rose"
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >> Why shouldn't access to the latest cultural input be seen as a
>> >> > > >> human
>> >> > > > right? Libraries give reference books and novels out for free for
>> >> > similar
>> >> > > > reasons, surely?
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> What about classic books of our time, thos that are social
>> >> > > >> commentaries
>> >> > > > such as 1984 or Catcher in the Rye? They're touchstones in common
>> >> > parliance,
>> >> > > > using the term 'big brother society' uses a character from a
> novel
>> >> > > > to shortcut, yet also add colour to, an explanation about a
>> >> > > > complicated
>> >> > concept
>> >> > > > that was neatly wrapped up by Orwell.
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> Books like Turn of the Century in 1999 really tapped into the
>> >> > > > technological and social zeitgeist.
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> Books such as Fast Food Nation or Jon Snow's autobiography
> Shooting
>> >> > > > History, for instance, are not exactly reference books but
> contain
>> >> > > > an
>> >> > awful
>> >> > > > lot of important and significant commentary and information.
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> It's hard to draw the line and there's no good reason to
> continue
>> >> > > >> to
>> >> > make
>> >> > > > books inaccessible.
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> I would prefer to pay publishers and authors for their work so
> that
>> >> > they
>> >> > > > will continue to publish great books. I would like authors to
>> >> > > > benefit
>> >> > from
>> >> > > > my individual purchase. But if books are inaccessible then they
>> >> > > > kind of have to accept that we steal their texts.
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> In a lot of ways, they are stealing things away from us in the
>> >> > > >> first
>> >> > > > place, we're just steeling it bak again.
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> ...Damon
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> > > Angel
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> How do you figure having access to the latest novels or whatever
>> >> > > >> you
>> >> > want
>> >> > > > to read is a basic human rite. In which constitution does it say
>> >> > > > this?
>> >> > If
>> >> > > > you can't read print you can either purchase a scanner and
> reading
>> >> > software,
>> >> > > > or go to the library and use their equipment for such pursuits.
>> >> > > > Though basic literacy has been found to be a basic human rite
> being
>> >> > > > able to
>> >> > read
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > your favorite novel is not.
>> >> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > > >> From: "Damon"
>> >> > >
>> >> > > >> > Yes, it's a shame isn't it.
>> >> > > >> >
>> >> > > >> > I download illegally shared eBooks too because I can't read
>> >> > > >> > print.
>> >> > > >> >
>> >> > > >> > Access to knowledge and culture is a human right and, I'd say
> we
>> >> > can't
>> >> > > >> > really describe it as thievery. I'd describe it as taking
>> >> > > >> > something that should rightfully be in our domain anyway.
>> >> > > >> >
>> >> > > >> > It's only thievery if one can get it thru the normal means.
> If
>> >> > > >> > you are denied access to it, yet fundamentally it should be a
>> >> > > >> > human
>> >> > right,
>> >> > > >> > then
>> >> > > >> you
>> >> > > >> > have to be creative and inventive about gaining access to it.
>> >> > > >> >
>> >> > > >> > ...Damon
>> >> > > >> >
>> >> > > >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > > >> > From: "Angel"
>> >> > > >> >
>> >> > > >> > > I would hate to think that to become a part of society one
> must
>> >> >
>> >> > > >> > > resort
>> >> > > >> to
>> >> > > >> > > thievery.
>> >> > > >> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > > >> > > From: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> > > >> > >
>> >> > > >> > > > I use exactly the same argument regarding downloading tv
>> >> > > >> > > > shows on
>> >> > > >> > > BitTorrent. If the manufacturers and service providers of
>> >> > > >> > > things like
>> >> > > >> > TiVo
>> >> > > >> > > and Sky Digital don't bother to make their products
> accessible
>> >> > > >> > > then I'll steal their content from elsewhere in order that I
>> >> > > >> > > can be part of this
>> >> > > >> > here
>> >> > > >> > > society. Thank you. And yes I'd be happy to see what a
>> >> > > >> > > courtroom made
>> >> > > >> of
>> >> > > >> > > that too.
>> >> > > >> > > >
>> >> > > >> > > >
>> >> > > >> > > > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > > >> > > Of Tyrer, Jonathan
>> >> > > >> > > > Sent: 13 April 2005 15:42
>> >> > > >> > > > To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > > >> > > > Subject: [access-uk] Re: iPod shuffle ready to go?
>> >> > > >> > > >
>> >> > > >> > > >
>> >> > > >> > > > I wonder if I should turn myself into the police for
> pirating
>> >> >
>> >> > > >> > > > music
>> >> > > >> from
>> >> > > >> > > the Net. None of the pay for music sites are accessible so
> I
>> >> > > >> > > am forced
>> >> > > >> to
>> >> > > >> > > steal music instead. I'd like to go to court for that I
> think!
>> >> > > >> > > >
>> >> > > >> > > > JT
>> >> > > >> > > >
>> >> > > >> > > >
>> >> > > >> > > > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > > >> > > Damon Rose
>> >> > > >> > > >
>> >> > > >> > > > Here's another solution. Why don't we just all sue Apple?
>> >> > > >> > > > Or mail
>> >> > > >> them
>> >> > > >> > > in our droves? All the faffing around we have to do to gain
> a
>> >> > weeny
>> >> > > >> > > bit
>> >> > > >> > of
>> >> > > >> > > access, whilst still giving these companies our money,
> really
>> >> > really
>> >> > > >> bugs
>> >> > > >> > > the hell out of me.
>> >> > > >> > > >
>> >> > > >> > > > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > >
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