Thanks Terry,
Yes, there's probably countless points that needed further explanation,
elaboration or critique including that. Thanks for the clarification.
While we're at it, I guess another substantial advantage is ignition - ie.
if you have a dodgy igniter or connection or whatever issue with the
ignition - just like a solid, you can just venture out to the pad with a new
one and install *without* dumping the N2O which is something you're likely
needing to do in the case of a remote filled flavour.
Having much more control of your tank mass is another virtue as you
normally pre-fill the tank under controlled conditions with scales.
The one glaring point to laser focus on with a Chill-and-Fill hybrid is to
ensure your tank is *rated* to hold the required pressure. If you're making
it yourself, allow at least a x3 safety factor with a pressure relief
device.
One thing that has changed a bit since these style of hybrid were popular
with some people is the vast array of Paint Ball kit that's available now
including CO2 cylinders. Given that CO2 and N2O have such similar physical
properties and provided they're clean enough (chemically compatible enough)
for N2O, the chill'n-fill flyer might have access to a broader range of
suitable rated cylinders they can feel comfortable about carrying around
filled with N2O. Obviously homework needs to be completed first, but it's
probably worth the effort.
Cheers,
Troy
From: arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Terry McCreary
Sent: Sunday, 14 March 2021 4:53 AM
To: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AR] Re: Hybrid High Powered Rocket
Hello all,
Troy, I don't know if this is what you meant, but the pyrovalve used by
Aerotech's hybrid could be launched on the same pad as solids, with an
ordinary motor-starter and launch pad. A scale was needed because the tank
was loaded with N2O by weight. I've never used it or even seen it, so now
you all probably know more than I do.
Best -- Terry
_____
From: arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > on
behalf of Stephen Daniel <swd@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:swd@xxxxxxxxx> >
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2021 10:48 AM
To: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >
Subject: [AR] Re: Hybrid High Powered Rocket
I think you should break this project down into 3 projects.
1) Build your motor. Don't worry about making it flight weight. Bolt the
components to a large metal frame that bolts to your test stand. This
project will force you to acquire and become familiar with nitrous oxide and
your ground support equipment. You'll ensure you are getting reliable
ignition, that you like the recipe and shape of your fuel grain, etc.
2) Build and fly a rocket. Make it big enough that it is likely the size
you'll want for your nitrous, but plan to fly it with a commercial
solid-fuel motor. This will help you learn the procedures for flying HPR in
your jurisdiction. It will also connect you with local rocket enthusiasts
who can be a good source of design help. This is why you experiment with
pyro-free recovery.
3) Integrate and fly your nitrous rocket. This may well involve building a
new motor and a new airframe, but you'll be able to reuse many pieces, all
your ground support, etc.
On Sat, Mar 13, 2021 at 7:59 AM Troy Prideaux <troy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:troy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > wrote:
It's unusual - especially with these size rockets - to actually carry a
(heavy) solenoid valve on the rocket/engine. You need heat/energy/reactive
radicals to initiate N2O decomposition and O+F reaction anyway, so
typically, the generation of such is also used to open the flow of N2O into
the combustion chamber.
Examples:
U/C valve: where the filling hose to the tank is fed through the nozzle and
CC into either an olive or press-in connector that also can act as an
injector. A small solid propellant preheater slug is typically placed next
to or around the hose at the injector end that (upon ignition) acts to both
open the flow by burning through the hose, preheats the surrounding fuel
grain and heats the incoming flow of N2O to begin the *exothermic*
decomposition. 2 MPa rated nylon hose is generally employed for this fill
hose which will actually hold the typical 5-7 MPa N2O feed pressured but
will reliably burst at a touch under 8 MPa. So the hose (very elegantly)
acts as (1) a fill hose (2) an "on" valve and (3) a pressure reliving
device.
Pyrovalve: a slug of solid propellant is used to block the injector flow
(ie. typically directly aft of the injector). Sometimes a thin layer of
plastic or polymerized resin or whatever seals the solid propellant from
direct exposure to the N2O. Similar concept to the above except the tank
requires filling from the top thereby requiring a check valve (typically)
and some method of disconnection (hose cutter/mechanical disconnect) of the
fill hose.
To initiate the engine, the solid propellant is ignited from the CC end
and proceeds to regress to the point where it mechanically fails and allows
N2O flow though. Again (as with the UC valve), the solid propellant
preheater grain also needs to preheat/decompose some of the fuel and
initiate N2O decomposition as it flows though.
The advantage with this method over the UC is it allows for a broader
range of injector geometries and there's less chance of over pressurising on
ignition. The downside (as mentioned) is it require separate valving and
disconnection of the fill hose.
Kline/Pooley? Valve: used for the Hypertek commercial range of hybrids of
the late 90s-2000s era. This system required more ground support equipment
but required no solid propellant it was a totally pyroless ignition system.
Basically, a coaxial stainless steel fill spike is inserted up the nozzle,
through the CC with the inner (longer) spike inserted all the way up into an
o-ring recess just aft of the (interchangeable) screw-in injector. The base
of this spike is also attached to a plate that is used to act as anchor
points to tie the motor down via plastic cable ties which is to stop the
rocket from popping off the fill spike upon filling. N2O is fed up in the
centre spike into the tank and when the rocket is ready to fire, gaseous O2
is fed up the (shorter) outer jacket tubing into the CC to create a very
reactive zone between the solid (plastic) fuel and GOX within. Some 2 core
speaker wire is generally taped to the outer sleeve/tube and when ready, a
high voltage arc is passed between the ends of the wire thereby igniting the
wire's insulation and subsequently the exposed fuel in the GOX filled CC.
Upon enough thermal reaction, the cable ties holding the nozzle (retainer)
down to the plate will melt through and let go, thereby allowing the rocket
to rise and the N2O to start flowing into the CC as the spike clears the
o-ring sealed recess. and off we go.
There's probably a hundred more methods, but these 3 are the most elegant or
practical especially for the size hybrids being discussed here.
As for non pyrotechnic recovery. There are systems - I've been doing non
pyro recovery for over 10 years, but it's a really challenging project to
develop your 1st hybrid engine AND do non pyro recovery.
A local club presentation I did back in 09. It's a bit dated, but provides
more detail on the methods I just described. I've posted this link before
here.
www.propulsionlabs.com.au/hybrid/TRAAU Hybrid Propulsion Systems
Presentation.ppt
<http://www.propulsionlabs.com.au/hybrid/TRAAU%20Hybrid%20Propulsion%20Syste
ms%20Presentation.ppt>
Cheers,
Troy
From: arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ;<mailto:arocket-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> ]
On Behalf Of SAI WAI PHYO
Sent: Friday, 12 March 2021 6:37 PM
To: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AR] Hybrid High Powered Rocket
Hi all!
I am want to design a hybrid high powered rocket which uses nitrous oxide
as the Oxidizer and 3d printed ABS as fuel. I need help on the design
process of the certain aspects of the rocket such as:
1. What should be appropriate amount of total impulse that I should
set for the motor? My target altitude is 1km.
2. What size should the airframe be? I am aware of the different sizes
of airframes but since I am making a hybrid, I need an airframe that can fit
a solenoid valve that has a pressure rating fit for nitrous operation and
can have a large range of fitting choices.
3. Are there any non-pyrotechnic recovery methods that I can look into?
I do not plan to make this yet, I just want to learn the design process of
a high powered rocket .
Regards,
Sai Wai Phyo
Student | Diploma in Aeronautical Engineering
Singapore Polytechnic
500 Dover Road, Singapore, 139651