Steve, Accessibility is about ensuring equal access to information for all people. If you have to follow a link to find out what's at the other = end, when a sighted person would not, then the access is not equal. You're right, it is also a usability issue, the two are often very closely related. But if you came across a road sign with nothing written = on it, I don't think you'd find it acceptable that you had to drive to the destination to discover if it was the place you wanted. At the end of the day, you might call it usability and I might call it accessibility. In either case, I don't believe that a site with = missing alt texts on important links is acceptable. Regards, L=E9onie. -----Original Message----- From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf = Of Steve Nutt Sent: 14 January 2007 19:21 To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [access-uk] Re: Asda online. Hi Leonie, I would argue that this is usability, not accessibility. Inaccessible = =3D to me means you can't do it, and I don't believe this is the case with this = =3D site. Tricky, but not impossible. Regarding fonts, I am by no means an expert, but I thought you could override what fonts the browser uses with your own settings, in IE I =3D thought you could anyway. Or am I wrong? All the best -- Computer Room Services: =3D20 the long cane for blind computer users. Telephone Low-call: 08452 606 277 International: +44(0)1438 742286, Fax: +44(0)1438 759589 mobile: +44(0)7956 334938, Email: mailto:Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Web site: http://www.comproom.co.uk =3D20 =3D20 -----Original Message----- From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf = =3D Of L=3DE9onie Watson Sent: 15 January 2007 16:07 To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [access-uk] Re: Asda online. Steve, Sorry not to leap into the fray, but this isn't a screen reader issue. There are many images that do not have alt text, including some = =3D =3D3D of relatively high importance. For example, a graphical link leading to a special offer for Lenor fabric conditioner. As expert screen reader users, you and I might guess that "panels_r4/SB_lenors_fabcon_35257" leads to special offer =3D3D information, we might even follow the link to find out if we were =3D = curious enough. =3D3D But, many people would find it confusing and would = probably =3D never realise =3D3D what the link was intended for. It doesn't stop with screen readers though. As far as I can determine in a quick rummage, all font sizes are set in stone, as is the layout of the page. No good to=3D3D20 There area multitude of rblms thatw o ffect peopewith cognitive, physical and someone with mild visual impairment who would benefit from increasing the size of text or maximising the size of the browser =3D3D = =3D window. There are a multitude of other problems that would affect people with other disabilities as well. Accessibility is not just a visual impairment issue. It's a people issue. Regards, L=3D3DE9onie. -----Original Message----- From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf = =3D =3D3D Of Steve Nutt Sent: 13 January 2007 23:32 To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [access-uk] Re: Asda online. Hi Leonie, As Mary says, no problem with Asda and Window-Eyes. No poor access =3D = =3D3D3D =3D3D here. All the best -- Computer Room Services: =3D3D3D20 the long cane for blind computer users. Telephone Low-call: 08452 606 277 International: +44(0)1438 742286, Fax: +44(0)1438 759589 mobile: +44(0)7956 334938, Email: mailto:Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Web site: http://www.comproom.co.uk =3D3D3D20 =3D3D3D20 -----Original Message----- From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D Of L=3D3D3DE9onie Watson Sent: 14 January 2007 14:03 To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [access-uk] Re: Asda online. Ray, Tesco of course would be quick to point out that they take online accessibility very seriously. Their main website is possible to use and = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D the access site marginally easier. They do now = claim that =3D the two =3D3D sites =3D3D3D are =3D3D3D3D one and the same thing, = just with different interfaces, =3D3D but the net =3D3D3D effect =3D3D3D3D is the = same, two =3D different sites. Asda also provide two sites. The main site is very poor, whilst the access site is not too bad. It looks as though the two sites are = =3D3D3D3D =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D entirely separate. =3D3D3D3D20 =3D3D3D3D20 Sainsburys provide just a single site and like the Tesco or Asda access sites, it is reasonably accessible. The questions I have are this: Why provide two sites? There is absolutely no need, economically, socially, accessibly or otherwise. The technology to create a single, accessible and user friendly site has long been around. Sainsburys are a fair example of this. Why not go for full standards compliant websites that conform to best practice accessibility and usability techniques? It's not rockets science, although developing an e-commerce site on this scale would certainly have its challenges. I don't know what the experience of shopping in an actual store is like for any of these retailers, it's not something I've summoned up the strength to try when I'm on my own, although the staff in our local Sainsbury's and Tesco are usually very helpful in any case. IF as you say though, help on the ground is something of a lottery, then yes, we should definitely be pushing for greater support. Online = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D and offline in fact. The curious thing is that all of = the big =3D three seem =3D3D to =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D be trying. It's possible they think they're doing enough. It's possible they're getting lousy advice from whoever operates as their =3D3D3D3D accessibility/usability knowledge base, it's possible that they simply aren't aware of the improvements that could be made. From our point of view, I suspect it's back to the grindstone. Contacting our preferred retailer to provide feedback, good or bad, = =3D3D =3D =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D advice and suggestions. If we know something isn't = working but =3D don't say =3D3D =3D3D3D3D anything, the chances no-one will ever = know. I know Tesco carry out user testing before they launch anything significant, which is good to know and they seem fairly receptive to comments and feedback from the public. Asda customer services don't = =3D3D =3D =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D appear to know much about the web, so I'm not sure how = to send =3D feedback =3D3D to the right ears. Sainsburys are also receptive, but = again it's =3D hard to =3D3D know =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D if the message is reaching = the right ears. In all =3D cases, I suspect =3D3D if there were enough feedback on = the same topic, it would eventually reach =3D3D the =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D right = people. It's a tricky one all round and this has been quite a long enough email... That's the trouble with the vino I expect. Regard L=3D3D3D3DE9onie. =3D3D3D3D20 =3D3D3D3D20 -----Original Message----- From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D Of Ray's Home Sent: 13 January 2007 07:24 To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [access-uk] Re: Asda online. Well L3o9ie all sounds very civilized ordering to the accompaniment of = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D El Vino, but does that lead to mistakes being = made? I =3D imbibe =3D3D sometimes =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D after the shopping, though I = wouldn't go as far =3D as to say it =3D3D drives me to =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D drink. On a more serious, and on topic note, wouldn't you say that, given the hassle most feel about going to a super market, wouldn't that be a good = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D part of a strategy for campaigners to target = large =3D retailers such =3D3D as =3D3D3D these to take internet access seriously? = Given that staff =3D help on the ground =3D3D3D is something of a lottery and = also now the drive to =3D automate =3D3D the check out process in super markets, = also, some are going to be =3D driven =3D3D more and =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D more to = go the on-line route. All very fine, =3D but all too =3D3D often we're face = =3D3D3D with =3D3D3D3D what amounts to a 'no entry' =3D sign for anyone =3D3D with = problems, be it =3D3D3D physical or electronic access. Maybe time to reach for the vino again. By the way, the Saver Centre, otherwise known as Sainsburys, even managed to beat Tesco in the vino colapso league with, a bottle selling for =3D3D3D3DA32.10 as opposed to = =3D =3D3D around =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3DA32.90 at Tesco. Okay, an uneducated = pallet mine =3D might be, =3D3D but a few bottles =3D3D3D3D of those can make = for a happy week end. From Ray I can be contacted off-list at: mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D Of L=3D3D3D3DE9onie Watson Ray, I must admit the thought of going to a supermarket doesn't appeal to me. I'm quite happy shopping with Sainsburys or Tesco, both have their = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D pros and cons. I like doing my shopping = with a glass =3D of vino in =3D3D hand, =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D seems =3D3D3D3D3D much more = civilized somehow! I'm never going to live down the L3o9ie thing am I? *Smile. Tink was so much easier, but I kept getting too close to signing work emails with = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D my nick, so figured better safe than = sorry and =3D to hell =3D3D with some =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D applications not liking the = accent. Regards, L=3D3D3D3D3DE9onie.=3D3D3D3D3D20 -----Original Message----- From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D Of Ray's Home Sent: 12 January 2007 00:18 To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [access-uk] Re: Asda online. Must say , Graham's comment obliges me to say that I have never seen L=3D3D3D3D3D3DE9onie as we must call her now, as an ASDA customer! I love fish fingers, and bought some ata similar price at Saver Centre = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D in Oldbury. Doubt that much fish, if any = found its =3D way into =3D3D them! =3D3D3D Point =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D of saying = all this? Try and live very neara supermarket, as I do. You aren't much tempted = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D to get into all the tech access issues = that keep =3D coming up here. Maybe =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D some physical access issues but = that's =3D maybe OT =3D3D on this list. From Ray I can be contacted off-list at: mailto:ray-48@xxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D Of Graham Page Sent: 11 January 2007 11:12PM Hi Leoni. I live in East London. I am actually within the E1 boundary = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D yet Asda do not deliver there = either. Oh How =3D i'd love to =3D3D be able =3D3D3D to =3D3D3D3D gorge myself on smart = price fish fingers, =3D bought on line =3D3D for 18 pence =3D3D3D for =3D3D3D3D3D = =3D3D3D3D 10!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "L=3D3D3D3D3DE9onie Watson" <tink@xxxxxxxxxx> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 9:10 PM Subject: [access-uk] Re: Asda online. Graham and all, Thanks for your responses. Until recently, I too wasn't in an area that = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D Asda delivered to. Considering I = live in a city, =3D only a =3D3D couple of =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D miles = =3D3D3D3D3D from a large Asda, =3D this has always =3D3D struck me as strange, =3D3D3D but = that's =3D3D3D3D not =3D =3D3D3D3D3D3D why =3D3D3D3D3D I sent the =3D3D email. I was disappointed to find the Asda site much more difficult to use than either Tesco or Sainsbury. No headings or lists that I could find, =3D3D = =3D =3D3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D missing alt text in some awkward places, = too much =3D JavaScript all =3D3D over =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D3D the =3D3D3D3D = =3D3D3D3D3D place and the most =3D ridiculous chicken =3D3D counter I've ever =3D3D3D come = across. OK, so the last one has nothing to do with accessibility or usability, = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D but am I the only one that finds the = following =3D completely =3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D3D daft? You can choose from a selection of chickens weighing in at around 1.2k through 1.5k, but nothing bigger. Given Asda is a family =3D3D3D3D3D3D = =3D3D =3D =3D3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D supermarket, this is strange in itself, = but it gets worse. There are a couple of chickens which you can buy on a per kilo basis. = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D The price per kilo is given, but there is = no way to =3D choose the =3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D weight =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D = you'd like. I spoke with customer services, who shrugged and said, well "you just = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D buy the chicken". I asked how I would know = what size =3D chicken I'd =3D3D be =3D3D3D getting =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D or what = price I'd be charged =3D and there was a long =3D3D pause and =3D3D3D then = =3D3D3D3D3D3D the =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D =3D person eventually said, "I have =3D3D no idea, = I can't help you =3D3D3D out on this =3D =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D3D one".. Maybe I was unlucky, maybe I am missing something, but either way, I'm = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D =3D3D3D3D3D back to Sainsburys in a hurry I think. Regards, L=3D3D3D3D3D3DE9onie. ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** = [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=3D3D3D3D3Dunsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=3D3D3D3D3Dfaq] ** or send a message, to ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=3D3D3D3Dunsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=3D3D3D3Dfaq] ** or send a message, to ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=3D3D3Dunsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=3D3D3Dfaq] ** or send a message, to ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=3D3Dunsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=3D3Dfaq] ** or send a message, to ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=3Dunsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=3Dfaq] ** or send a message, to ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq