[access-uk] Re: What do you consider inaccessible?
- From: Alasdair King <alasdairking@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 22:33:37 +0100
JAWS re-renders the HTML DOM into an invisible text field, which is
what you're working with when you're using JAWS and a web browser -
like an invisible WebbIE. If they're re-rendering anything like how I
do, there isn't necessarily a one-to-one mapping between the part of
the JAWS presentation of the page you're on and the web page itself in
the browser. And if you change your re-presentation then this may not
be immediately reflected in the page. So I'd guess it's not entirely
trivial.
Alasdair
On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 10:33 AM, Damon Rose <damon.rose@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> ** File was empty **
> All sounds good Dave but don't believe I was contradicting myself. I was
> suggesting a simple update whereby I could quite literally pinpoint a
> part of the screen for a colleague to look at and hence I'd be in total
> control with no faffing or guesswork going on. The improvement you're
> suggesting sounds like a bigger update. Anyway am not particularly up
> for having an argument about it. We all work differently.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of Dave Taylor
> Sent: 22 July 2010 09:08
> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: What do you consider inaccessible?
>
> ** File was empty **
> Damon
>
> I'm afraid you are completely contradicting yourself here. Where I do
> agree with you is that Jaws does not present a page to us in the way it
> looks on screen. I don't see any reason why they couldn't give Jaws a
> mode where it behaves the same as it does with Magic installed, where it
> does keep the page as it looks, and highlights where Jaws is. I think
> you could make a very coherent suggestion to FS along these lines, and I
> actually think it's the kind of thing they might go for.
>
> My question for you is, if you want to know what is causing Jaws
> problems, how can you find that out without being given technical
> information? I would also add that you have a high level of control of
> what Jaws speaks in HTML.
> You should check out the HTML options in Config manager. There are even
> plenty in the insert-v verbosity dialog. The trouble is there are so
> many types of control available now that if you don't know what it is,
> you don't know what you can do with it. Maybe you should also suggest an
> "expose OnMousOver" option, where you can control if you need to use
> ctrl-jaws-enter to activate an OnMouseOver (thing you hover over with a
> mouse and more options open up) or whether all items are always exposed.
>
> Cheers
> Dave
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of Damon Rose
> Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 8:46 AM
> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: What do you consider inaccessible?
>
> ** File was empty **
> What Alan is describing is the mismatch between the screenreader
> experieence and the sighted experience of a web page.
>
> Screenreaders have this awful way of giving you oodles of techie
> information about a screen as if you were an HTML coder. There must be a
> better way of giving that information across though I can't immediately
> think of one.
>
> But worse, using JAWS with a sighted colleague looking over my shoulder
> .... It's difficult to locate a part of the screen you're having
> difficulty with as it's entirely possible on occasions that what you're
> listening to via JAWS is completely different to what is currently on
> screen. It'd be good if jaws had a 'here I am' button so that when you
> pressed it, that little region of the screen would quickly flash red to
> grab someone's attention. But there are reasons why this could be
> difficult or misleading probably.
>
> I was suggesting, though, that we as blind people need a way of knowing
> why a website doesn't work or why it goes all bouncy so that your
> screenreader cursor goes slip sliding all over the place or experiences
> massive amount of lag and delay when attempting to read or perform an
> action.
>
> If we knew that the issue was because of a particular java applet in the
> top right corner of the screen, then we could feed it back to the site
> owner. Coders like to hear specific problems and specific solutions and
> can often get onto it very quicly or build it in to an accessibility
> strategy for a future release. The majority of coders I know are real
> problem solvers and get off on creating solutions and getting it right.
>
> That's just one thing though. Legislation or insentives is another.
>
> I'm gonna stop banging on about this now.
>
> ...Damon
>
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of Dave Taylor
> Sent: 21 July 2010 19:49
> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: What do you consider inaccessible?
>
> Alan,
>
> You are singing from the Apple Hymn Sheet. Their entire concept is based
> around letting you know what is where on the screen.
>
> Cheers
> Dave
>
>
> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of Alan Thorpe
> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 5:45 PM
> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: What do you consider inaccessible?
>
> Hello.
> To start off being pedantic, sorry for spelling.
> How are we able to say what is accessible when using a screen reader as
> I only know what is there when it tells me, what about all the other
> stuff that a screen reader does not tell me about.
> When I look at a site with a screen reader and move around it my brother
> says where are you as he can not see some of the things on screen but
> jaws is saying content or actions.
> I can not recall any particular site but this why I give up on them.
>
> This question is like asking a visually impaired person what can you
> see.
> How can I answer if I do not know what you can see.
>
> e.g.
> I can see that tree, but you could say that there is a bird nest, a foot
> ball, a plastic bag or even a branch which is dead and no leaves, you
> ask me that sort of question like can you see that cat on the wall and I
> say no but say what is over there I will say a wall and a blue gate, so
> how can I say what is accessible on a web site.
> Sorry for my rant but things have to be put in to context.
>
>
> MANY THANKS
> ALAN THORPE
>
> TEL. 0114 2207007
> MOB. 07961 406739
> EMAIL info@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> WEB. www.eyecan.org.uk
>
>
>
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--
Alasdair King
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