[AR] Re: Saturns (was Re: APCP ...)

  • From: "John Dom" <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> ("johndom")
  • To: arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2023 01:36:38 +0200 (CEST)


 Written von Braun. Just nitpickong.

John







Verzonden vanuit Proximus Mail



Van: Henry Spencer <hspencer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Verzonden: 30 april 2023 00:33:09 CEST

Aan: Arocket List <arocket@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Onderwerp: [AR] Re: Saturns (was Re: APCP ...)



On Fri, 28 Apr 2023, roxanna Mason wrote:


Nova, with eight F-1 engines, may have become a reality if LH2 wasn't adopted because an all kerosene vehicle like Russia's N-1, would have needed a 4th stage to get to escape with any usable payload.


Mmm, I don't think that's necessarily true.  If all that effort hadn't gone into LH2 upper-stage engines, there would surely have been more work on high-performance kerosene upper-stage engines.  (Proton, roughly the Russian contemporary of the Saturn IB, had staged-combustion engines throughout -- NTO/UDMH for the three main stages, LOX/kerosene for the optional maneuvering stage.)



Cautiously figure the S-IC as the first stage:  call the average F-1 Isp 280s (actual numbers:  sea-level 263s, vacuum 304s), and the stage mass ratio was 14:1 (yes, 93% propellant at ignition -- impressive for a conservative design from the Von Braun Iron Works :-) ).  Add a LOX/kerosene second stage with the same mass ratio but the vacuum Isp of Proton's maneuvering stage, 263s; that Isp may be a bit optimistic, but the mass ratio should be a bit pessimistic given more aggressive design (the Titan II first stage was 25:1...) and less need for high thrust, so call it a wash.  Split a 9km/s delta-V 4/5, and I get 74t to LEO -- about the same as the N1's three stages.  (Korolev didn't have the manufacturing capability to match the Saturn V's big cylindrical tanks, hence the mass-inefficient spherical tanks on the N1.)



A TLI stage with the same mass ratio and Isp as the second (could probably do a bit better on both) would push 27t to escape.  That's a bit over half of a complete Apollo, but close to twice Korolev's LOK/LK.



If you insist on a full Apollo :-), add a bit of EOR:  a second launch carries up a big drop-tank set for the TLI stage.



 Henry


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