Okay, they are suggestive. In Whole Lot of Love I think they are
suggestive of anal sex. You still haven't said whether you agree. But so
what? Other songs are suggestive of other things. I don't see how it
matters. I am curious about whether I am correct about exactly what is
being suggested, but, like I said, I like Whole Lot of Love because of
it overall sound and I especially like the atonal part. Whatever it is
being suggestive about does not distract from that. A lot of explicit
description of sex in a novel does distract from that and makes it kind
of boring, but in a song whatever is being implied or not implied is
irrelevant to the effect of the whole song. Getting upset about sexual
implications in a song strikes me as another kind of gratuitousness,
gratuitous prudery. It all reminds me of old grandmothers with buttoned
up collars up to their chins and high laced boots under their ankle
length dresses sitting around tut tutting about them young hussies who
have the brazen temerity to walk down the street showing their knees. It
all causes me to have the urge to roll my eyes.
___
Irvin D. Yalom “Truth," Nietzsche continued, "is arrived at through
disbelief and skepticism, not through a childlike wishing something were
so! Your patient's wish to be in God's hands is not truth. It is simply
a child's wish—and nothing more! It is a wish not to die, a wish for the
eveastingly bloated nipple we have labeled 'God'! Evolutionary theory
scientifically demonstrates God's redundancy—though Darwin himself had
not the courage to follow his evidence to its true conclusion. Surely,
you must realize that we created God, and that all of us together now
have killed him.” ― Irvin D. Yalom, When Nietzsche Wept
On 6/7/2021 10:16 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Maybe you're correct in the literal sense. But the words, the moans and other vocal sounds are so suggestive, that they might as well be explicit.
Miriam
*From:* blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> *On Behalf Of *Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
*Sent:* Monday, June 7, 2021 10:11 PM
*To:* blind-democracy <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Carl, a Led Zeppelin song you might like.
Actually, I don't see how you could say that the sex is explicit in Whole Lot of Love. It seems to me to be only implied. But I am inclined to agree with you about explicit descriptions of sex in books. Well, I don't agree in the way you express it. I agree in that I can well do without it. That's because it's boring. There are only so many body parts that can be rubbed against so many body parts and there are only so many ways to describe it. After you have read all of those ways to describe it so many times it just doesn't engender much interest anymore. Furthermore, I get to thinking what the book would be like without the explicit description of sex. If the descriptions are only now and then it doesn't seem to have much effect and I can read those descriptions without getting too bored even if I don't think they are necessary. I will admit that sometimes, though, they are important to the story, but it seems that for the most part they are gratuitous. If they are a major part of the book then they are most likely to be majorly gratuitous. In a case like that if the descriptions of sex are removed there is not much substance left. That shows that the main purpose of the book in question was to explicitly describe sex. But I am reminded of something else from when I was in the seventh grade. Or it may have been the eighth grade. It was some time in junior high school. I don't now remember how I came into possession of these, but I did acquire some books that were explicitly written as porn. Among the students in my school they were called fuck books. The first one I read with extreme interest. I can even say that it was titillating. The second one was too, but I started to get tired of it before I finished. Then I started the third one. Okay, the setting had changed and the names of the characters had changed, but it was the same old stuff that the other two had in it and I found it really boring by that time. I had some more and I may have flipped through them, but I didn't care to read more. I just passed them all on to someone else who was excited about reading the forbidden fruit. I never picked up another one until many years later when I found myself with a job as a clerk in a porn shop. Most of the porn was in the form of picture books that rested on racks that lined the wall and that we called magazines even though they were not periodicals. But in the middle of the floor there was a bin that contained a pile of those so-called fuck books. I flipped through some of them and read a few passages, but I quickly saw that it was the same old stuff and still just as boring. But back to music. Again, I heard nothing in Whole Lot of Love that I would call explicit description of sex and I don't think I have heard that in any other song either. There are a lot of songs out there that imply sex to one degree or another, but I really don't think I have ever heard one that actually describes it except, perhaps, some drinking songs sung by complete amateurs while more than a little drunk. I have never heard it in a commercial recording though.
___
Irvin D. Yalom “Truth," Nietzsche continued, "is arrived at through disbelief and skepticism, not through a childlike wishing something were so! Your patient's wish to be in God's hands is not truth. It is simply a child's wish—and nothing more! It is a wish not to die, a wish for the eveastingly bloated nipple we have labeled 'God'! Evolutionary theory scientifically demonstrates God's redundancy—though Darwin himself had not the courage to follow his evidence to its true conclusion. Surely, you must realize that we created God, and that all of us together now have killed him.” ― Irvin D. Yalom, When Nietzsche Wept
On 6/7/2021 9:36 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Well first, I think that when your textbook was referring to
atonal music, it was talking about classical music, not popular
music. For people who enjoy traditional classical music, that
atonal classical music is very jarring and it doesn't fulfill the
needs that we are accustomed to music fulfilling.
As for the lyrics, and the others which imply explicit sex, I find
those kinds of songs to be in bad taste. I don't like novels which
describe sex in explicit detail, that go on for paragraph after
paragraph. To me, they'repornographic and to me, so are songs like
the ones whose lyrics you've provided. I don't begrudge anyone
who enjoys the books or the songs, but to me, they're not
enjoyable. To me, sex can be wonderful and enjoyable, but it's
private. One can allude to it in a book without going into detail,
just as one can listen to love songs without lyrics about the
physical dynamics of sexual intercourse.
Miriam
*From:* blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> *On Behalf Of *Roger
Loran Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
*Sent:* Monday, June 7, 2021 9:06 PM
*To:* blind-democracy <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Carl, a Led Zeppelin song you
might like.
I am learning that I really don't like lyrics very much that are
out of the context of the song they are from. It seems to change
their meaning or robs them of any meaning at all. I also think
that a lot of the meaning in the lyrics are contained in the way
the singer sings them. In Whole Lot of Love I think the moaning
and gasping quality of Robert Plants voice contributes to any
meaning the song has. It really does imply some kind of sexual
ecstasy. Perhaps what divorcing the lyrics from the song is really
doing is just exposing the vacuousness of the songs that are
vacuous in the first place. But I went ahead and copied the
lyrics for Whole lot of Love. First, though, let me mention this.
Back when I was about twelve years old and in the seventh grade I
had a music class. The textbook for the class was explaining
different kinds of music. It mentioned atonal music. It said that
some people claim to like atonal music, but that they were likely
not telling the truth. It said that they were most likely trying
to set themselves apart or just trying to be different. At that
time I had never heard atonal music as far as I knew, but I could
not help thinking that the author of that textbook was an arrogant
jerk. That is, just because he didn't like something he just
declared that anyone who said that they did like it had to be
lying. I later found out that the places that I would most likely
hear atonal music was the background music for action and thriller
movies. Sometimes when there is intense action on the screen they
use orchestral atonal music as background to heighten the
excitement. I still had not heard atonal music in the context of a
piece of music presented as just a piece of music by itself. The
first time I ever heard that was in Led Zeppelin's Whole Lot of
Love. If you listened to even the first part of it you will know
that it is not all atonal, but as the song progresses it fades
into atonality. That is the part where Robert Plant, the lead
singer, starts with the moans and groans. Again,, I think that is
important to determining what the song is really all about. But I
found that I did like the atonal part. Just like Dazed and
Confused my liking of the song has little to do with the lyrics.
It has to do with the sound of the whole song. But I can assure
you that even though the atonal part is largely why I like the
song it has nothing to do with my trying to set myself apart or
trying to be different. I really do like it. Anyway, the point
came that I started suspecting that the song was about anal sex.
Up to a certain point it didn't have to be. All this stuff about
every inch of my love and way deep down inside and so forth could
just as well be referring to vaginal sex, but the wording just was
not quite the way that vaginal sex would be expected to be
described. The clenches, though, was that part right toward the
end where the singer says, "I want to be your back door man." Back
door is exactly the phrase that commonly describes anal sex.
Anyway, even though I think it detracts from whatever meaning the
song has here are the lyrics:
You need cooling
Baby I'm not fooling
I'm gonna send ya
Back to schooling
A-way down inside
A-honey you need it
I'm gonna give you my love
I'm gonna give you my love
Want to whole lotta love
Want to whole lotta love
Want to whole lotta love
Want to whole lotta love
You've been learning
Um baby I been learning
All them good times baby, baby
I've been year-yearning
A-way, way down inside
A-honey you need-ah
I'm gonna give you my love, ah
I'm gonna give you my love, ah oh
Whole lotta love
Want to whole lotta love
Want to whole lotta love
Want to whole lotta love
You've been cooling
And baby I've been drooling
All the good times, baby
I've been misusing
A-way, way down inside
I'm gonna give ya my love
I'm gonna give ya every inch of my love
I'm gonna give ya my love
Hey!
Alright! Let's go!
Whole lotta love
Want to whole lotta love
Want to whole lotta love
Want to whole lotta love
Way down inside
Woman, you need, yeah
Love
My, my, my, my
My, my, my, my
Lord
Shake for me girl
I wanna be your backdoor man
Hey, oh, hey, oh
Hey, oh, hey, oh
Ooh
Oh, oh, oh, oh
Cool, my, my baby
A-keep it cooling baby
A-keep it cooling baby
Ah-keep it cooling baby
Ah-keep it cooling baby
Ah-keep it cooling baby
___
Irvin D. Yalom “Truth," Nietzsche continued, "is arrived at
through disbelief and skepticism, not through a childlike wishing
something were so! Your patient's wish to be in God's hands is not
truth. It is simply a child's wish—and nothing more! It is a wish
not to die, a wish for the eveastingly bloated nipple we have
labeled 'God'! Evolutionary theory scientifically demonstrates
God's redundancy—though Darwin himself had not the courage to
follow his evidence to its true conclusion. Surely, you must
realize that we created God, and that all of us together now have
killed him.” ― Irvin D. Yalom, When Nietzsche Wept
On 6/7/2021 4:23 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Well, if you send the lyrics, I'll hazard an opinion. It's
hard to hear them and I really don't like listening to that
kind of music. I started thinking about the lyrics of the
popular songs of the 30's and 40's that I like and no one
could ever be confused about their meaning. "All of Me", "I
Walk Alone" (during WW2), or folk music like, "Kisses Sweeter
Than Wine".
Miriam
*From:* Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx>
<mailto:rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx>
*Sent:* Monday, June 7, 2021 4:09 PM
*To:* Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* Re: [blind-democracy] Re: Carl, a Led Zeppelin song
you might like.
It was just an acquaintance of mine who was giving me a ride.
I happened to mention that my two favorite Led Zeppelin songs
were Dazed and Confused and Whole Lot of Love and he told me
that Dazed and Confused was misogynist. He was male. I had
said that I liked the song for years without ever having paid
attention to the lyrics and I think the same applied to him.
He heard that line about the soul of a woman being created
below and jumped to the conclusion that it was about all
women. Then there we were having an argument, a friendly
argument in the car about the song without either of us
knowing very clearly what the lyrics actually were. But that
inspired me to look up the song on You Tube when I got home
and I posted the link to it here to get the opinions of people
on this list. Now that I have read the lyrics completely
through I am even more convinced that I am right. By the way,
this didn't come up, but I also happen to think that other
song, Whole lot of Love is about anal sex. Here is the link to
that one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQmmM_qwG4k
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQmmM_qwG4k>
Irvin D. Yalom “Truth," Nietzsche continued, "is arrived at
through disbelief and skepticism, not through a childlike
wishing something were so! Your patient's wish to be in God's
hands is not truth. It is simply a child's wish—and nothing
more! It is a wish not to die, a wish for the eveastingly
bloated nipple we have labeled 'God'! Evolutionary theory
scientifically demonstrates God's redundancy—though Darwin
himself had not the courage to follow his evidence to its true
conclusion. Surely, you must realize that we created God, and
that all of us together now have killed him.” ― Irvin D.
Yalom, When Nietzsche Wept
On 6/7/2021 3:33 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Who told you that it's misogynist? It isn't about all
women. It's a specific situation. Was the person a woman?
Miriam
*From:* blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> *On Behalf
Of *Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81"
for DMARC)
*Sent:* Monday, June 7, 2021 3:07 PM
*To:* blind-democracy <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Carl, a Led Zeppelin song
you might like.
Since Stairway to Heaven came across so entirely different
to me when I heard it without the music and without it
being sung I decided to look up the lyrics to Dazed and
Confused too. I can report that even though it came across
entirely differently without the music and being sung too
my interpretation of it remains the same. It appears to be
the point of view of a man who is being emotionally abused
by a woman and he is so addicted to her that he keeps
coming back for more abuse. And I still don't think it is
the least bit misogynist. But I am still not into poetry
and I really prefer both of these songs as songs rather
than as poetry. Here are the lyrics to Dazed and Confused:
Been dazed and confused
For so long, it's not true
Wanted a woman, never bargained for you
Lotsa people talkin',
Few of them know
Soul of a woman was created below, yeah
You hurt and abuse,
Tellin' all of your lies
Run 'round, sweet baby, lord, how they hypnotize
Sweet little baby, I don't know where you been
Gonna love you, baby, here I come again
Every day I work so hard, bringin' home my hard-earned pay
Try to love you, baby, but you push me away
Don't know where you're goin',
Only know just where you've been
Sweet little baby, I want you again
Ah, ah, ah, ah
(Did you ever look up my woman)
Ah, ah-ah-ah, ah-ah-ah-ah, ah-ah-ah-ah
Ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah, ah
Ahh, ah, ah, ah, ah
Ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ahhh, ahh
Oh, yeah, alright, alright
Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah-ah-ah, ah-ah-ah, ah
Ah-ah, ah-ah, ah-ah, ah-ah
Oh, I don't like when you're mystifyin' me
Oh, don't leave me so confused, now
Whoa, baby
Been dazed and confused for so long, it's not true
Wanted a woman, never bargained for you
Take it easy, baby,
Let them say what they will
Tongue wag so much when I send you the bill,
Oh, yeah, alright
___
Irvin D. Yalom “Truth," Nietzsche continued, "is arrived
at through disbelief and skepticism, not through a
childlike wishing something were so! Your patient's wish
to be in God's hands is not truth. It is simply a child's
wish—and nothing more! It is a wish not to die, a wish for
the eveastingly bloated nipple we have labeled 'God'!
Evolutionary theory scientifically demonstrates God's
redundancy—though Darwin himself had not the courage to
follow his evidence to its true conclusion. Surely, you
must realize that we created God, and that all of us
together now have killed him.” ― Irvin D. Yalom, When
Nietzsche Wept
On 6/7/2021 1:02 PM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Roger,
I listened to the song twice, and I confirmed what I was
afraid has
happened. While I still seem to hear normal conversation, my
hearing
has changed to the point that the music garbles the lyrics.
The only
clear words I got came at the very end, "And she's buying the
stairway
to heaven".
I used to have above average hearing, but in some situations
where
multiple sounds mix together, I'm having a difficult time
following
one thread. I'll need to find a link that takes me to just the
lyrics
before I can comment on them.
Along with living 86 years comes this darned thing called "The
Aging
Process", a nice way of saying that our parts are wearing out.
When
we first bought our get away cabin out here in the Wilds of the
Great
Olympic Peninsula in 1987, I could stand on the deck and hear
what
sounded like a sizzling. It was very faint, and in the city it
was
not even noticeable. Today, some 34 years later, the sizzle
has grown
to the point that it is always noticeable. Many little changes
keep
showing up. While we felt that we were forcced to retire a year
earlier than we had planned, I can't imagine that I would be an
encouraging sight to an older, newly blind client watching me
hobble
up to their door. Remember, most blind folks have varying
degrees of
useful vision. As my dear old neighbor used to tell me when I
asked
her how she was doing, "My get up and go has got up and went."
Carl Jarvis
On 6/7/21, Carl Jarvis<carjar82@xxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:carjar82@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Thanks for the comments and suggestions, Roger.
I do use You Tube for lots of off-beat music. Paul Robeson
for
example. One of my personal human rights heroes, as well
as the
greatest baritone ever.
I have a shelf above my computer that holds about 120 CD's.
Most of
them have only been played once. Collecting them over
several years
seemed like a good idea, but playing them while working
became too
distracting. Pulling up You Tube is easier when I take a
break and
relax.
I'll let you know any thoughts next time I listen to Led
Zeppelin and
the lyrics to Stairway to Heaven.
Carl Jarvis
On 6/6/21, Roger Loran Bailey<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Carl, you really ought to listen to the lyrics. It is
disdainful of the
woman who thinks all that glitters is gold and her
temerity at trying to
buy the stairway to heaven. All of that seems to mesh
with the kind of
things you habitually say. As for buying it, frankly, I
haven't been
willing to actually pay for music since I was a
teenager. Anyway, even
if I did have any lingering lust for paying for music I
don't need to.
Just like I was able to call up this one by typing in a
very few search
terms I can call up pretty much any other piece of
music I might want to
hear. You can too. Just go to You Tube and enter the
name and band name
of your choice and in short order you will be hearing
that big band
music you like. There are other choices too. Even
though I knew about it
I had not really listened to much death metal music
until I downloaded
the Tapin radio software for free. I did a search there
and found
several death metal stations that play around the clock
with no
commercials. I found out that I rather like death
metal. Now I can find
the same stations on my Victor reader. And, oh, I think
I can just about
guarantee that you wouldn't like any examples of death
metal. Led
Zeppelin and Black Sabbath are really tame in
comparison.
___
Irvin D. Yalom “Truth," Nietzsche continued, "is
arrived at through
disbelief and skepticism, not through a childlike
wishing something were
so! Your patient's wish to be in God's hands is not
truth. It is simply
a child's wish—and nothing more! It is a wish not to
die, a wish for the
eveastingly bloated nipple we have labeled 'God'!
Evolutionary theory
scientifically demonstrates God's redundancy—though
Darwin himself had
not the courage to follow his evidence to its true
conclusion. Surely,
you must realize that we created God, and that all of
us together now
have killed him.” ― Irvin D. Yalom, When Nietzsche Wept
On 6/6/2021 5:23 PM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
You're right, Roger. While I am not a fan of the
lead singer, the
overall effect is soothing. And they don't become
frantic at the end.
Some groups just can't help themselves. They
create a soothing sound
that flows through my Soul...and suddenly they go
bananas. I have to
admit, I listened to the total effect, not the
lyrics. And the total
effect was fine. So I browsed a number of Led
Zeppelin songs, and
found that I would never pay for any Led Zeppelin
albums.
The problem is within me. I grew up with the Big
Band sound, and went
along with the goosey loosey music of the fifties.
I was moved by
much of the creativeness of the sixties and
seventies, but struggled
with Hip Hop and Grunge. And as far as Rap
goes...it can go. Write
me a short poem telling me your troubles, but
please don't put it to
music and snarl out the lyrics over and over and
over...
Actually there is not much music that I don't care
for. I enjoy
Country, especially the older forties and fifties,
and I love
Classical...excluding Chamber Music, and most Jazz
except the stuff
that goes piddling around and wanders off in four
directions at once.
Did I forget Blue Grass? There's just not much I
don't like. But if
it jars my nerves...well that's not music to me.
But thanks for showing me that even a group that I
have avoided, even
they have some redeeming grace.
Carl Jarvis
On 6/5/21, Roger Loran
Bailey<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Carl, okay, you didn't like Dazed and Confused.
I am pretty sure you
probably would not like much else that Led
Zeppelin ever did either.
However, there is one Led Zeppelin song that I
think you just might
like. I said that I had never paid attention to
the words in Dazed and
Confused before, but in this one the words are
so clear and so out
front
that it would be difficult to listen to it
without paying attention to
it. Furthermore I think you just might be in
agreement with the
sentiments expressed in this one. It is
certainly disdainful of greed
and privilege. It is Stairway to Heaven. Let me
know if you do like
this
one from Led
Zeppelin:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkF3oxziUI4 ;
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkF3oxziUI4>
--
Irvin D. Yalom “Truth," Nietzsche continued,
"is arrived at through
disbelief and skepticism, not through a
childlike wishing something
were
so! Your patient's wish to be in God's hands is
not truth. It is simply
a child's wish—and nothing more! It is a wish
not to die, a wish for
the
eveastingly bloated nipple we have labeled
'God'! Evolutionary theory
scientifically demonstrates God's
redundancy—though Darwin himself had
not the courage to follow his evidence to its
true conclusion. Surely,
you must realize that we created God, and that
all of us together now
have killed him.” ― Irvin D. Yalom, When
Nietzsche Wept