[vicsireland] Re: debate on vics and E.G.M
- From: "Noreen Meagher" <noreenmeagher@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 14:56:30 +0100
Hi Kerie,
Apologies for late response but was waiting for admission date for my
husband who is to have operation & he has just got date for that weekend. I
do hope the result of the meeting will be a positive one for Vics,
personally I thought open days were very successful & training days when
Vics members gave up their free time on a Saturday to travel & support other
members. Once again apologies,
Noreen Meagher
-----Original Message-----
From: vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerie Doyle
Sent: 11 April 2014 15:55
To: vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [vicsireland] Re: debate on vics and E.G.M
Hi Gerard and Tim
Tim, I agree with both you and Gerard on this matter I am delighted there is
such activity on the list at the moment about how we can keep vics going and
I have no doubt that some of the topics being raised here currently will
make for interesting discussions on the 26th Thanks Kerie
Sent from my iPhone
On 10 Apr 2014, at 05:29 p.m., GERARD SHANAHAN <gershan@xxxxxx> wrote:
Thanks Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Culhane <mailto:tim.j.culhane@xxxxxxxxx>
To: vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 8:22 AM
Subject: [vicsireland] Re: debate on vics and E.G.M
Hi Gerard,
I certainly wouldn't say that the decision of the meeting on
26th April is a fait accompli.
I for one want Vics to continue, and I know that others do
also.
I suppose the bigger question is how Vics can change and
evolve in order to meet the needs of visually impaired technology users in
Ireland today.
Hopefully the EGM will provide an open forum for the
exchange of ideas and thoughts on this matter.
Since,as you have shown over the last week, you also have
lots of ideas as to how Vics can survive, I'd urge you to try and make the
meeting in person if at all possible.
Tim
From: vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of GERARD SHANAHAN
Sent: 09 April 2014 17:35
To: vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [vicsireland] Re: debate on vics and E.G.M
At this point, I'd like to thank everyone who took part in
my requested debate in support of the continuation of vics. Kerie, I
apoligise if you were under the impression that it was a personal attack,
it wasn't I was just trying to flush out answers to why such a decision came
out of left field. The main theme of all the emails in defence of your
position is lack of response from the list. Your response to my suggestions:
"Completely agree with what's being said here.
If you are wanting to take over the position of chair of
VICS that is
great, and leaves you then wide open to implement all you
have said," - it appears you have mixed me up with somebody else, my name is
Gerard not Adolf Heil Hitler and such strategies could only be accomplished
with the joint assistance of a committee and their individual co-operation.
People who have read my recent email know that I am a pro
active person believing that stimulation is the only way to get a reaction
alas the lack of contributions to the debate means that I am incorrect in my
assumptions even though I have been involved in setting up a voluntary group
that has survived twenty years myself. That besides, I appreciate the
responses by members of the committee who explained the general position.
In relation to the society not being successful in part as
it duplicates certain aspects of National agencies, this can be said to be
true but we are not 9-5pm people, we are not constrained by setting
premises, which seems to prevent official organisations from pushing the
boundries. I am appreciative of Martin's confirmation that a separate email
address could be used in the event of voting, as it could be a useful tool
in gauging interest on decision making.
In regard to the website: The website is a useful tool, in
that it could contain what is already there and a great deal more. For
example: at a basic level if there was a free source typing tutor which
could be downloaded that could be used for newly blind users, tutorials on
Win 8, ms ribbon, basic PC housekeeping WITH LINKS TO free anti virus
software. Then on a higher level tutorials on office suite, audacity, voip
software, project to engage users with skype(aspirationally it could
provide a live learning platform). Of course there are the vagaries of
different running systems which would create stumbling blocks. A section on
Apple phones and pads plus useful apps. Tutorials on Facebook and Twitter .
Of course, nailing people down to contribute is as you state the crux. At
least leave the site up for an indefinite period in the event a member
wishes to develop it.
Website marketing: Presently, we have a limited membership
and the only way to make it into a mass market aimed towards the general
visually impaired and blind community is to find new sources of people to
log on to the website and join the list. One such source would be the F ach
organisation which is the group of families with vip children. As in the
past we have had queries from individuals in this grouping a presentation at
one of their conferences would draw interest. Professionals are important
but we can provide practical and useful assistance being of the same ilk.
Similarly, contacting other such user groups and publicising our existence
would be helpful. If people don't know you exist, they can't join you.
Finally, I appreciate Tim's reply to Ed. At least the
mailing list will be a resource as long as it exists. It was a pity I could
not have got more people to contribute to the debate and it seems that the
result for April 26th is a "Faith accompli" . I have made my appeal thus
people know my position, There is no need for me to be present at the
requiem.
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Culhane <mailto:tim.j.culhane@xxxxxxxxx>
To: vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 4:10 PM
Subject: [vicsireland] Re: debate on vics and E.G.M
Hi Ed,
I certainly see no reason why the list could not
continue without Vics.
It costs nothing and its strength is the pool of
knowledge made up by its members.
Tim
From: vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ed Harper
Sent: 08 April 2014 16:01
To: vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [vicsireland] Re: debate on vics and E.G.M
Could I make a suggestion. If vics decided to
windup activities other than the mailing list, could that be kept open and
anyone interested in helping other computer users could at least remain as
members of the list. Living where i do I have never attended an A or Egm,
but I have been to a tech day at UCC in Cork and had invaluable help from
the list and also learned a lot, without even asking questions through
reading others emails. I am 95% certain I won't make the meeting because I
won't have cover on the farm, so can't leave home, but that doesn't show a
lack of interest.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: Kerie Doyle
<mailto:kerie.doyle1987@xxxxxxxxx>
To: vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2014 12:16 PM
Subject: [vicsireland] Re: debate on vics
and E.G.M
Martin has summed up the view point of the
committee fantastically. Couldn't have written it better myself.
I would also say at this point, following on
from Martin's email, that if only the committee are in attendance at the
meeting then it will not bode well for the future of vics, so something to
think about.
Thanks
Kerie
Sent from my iPhone
On 7 Apr 2014, at 09:49 a.m., Martin Fleming
<martinfleming01@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Gerry,
I would be in support of Kerie just
like Cearbhall especially in view of the issue of a physical meeting. I
have provided responses to your questions shown at the end of each point but
please remember that these are my views and thoughts and not necessarily the
views of others on the committee. I don't know if anyone else will provide
answers to these points and the lengthy Email but I hope this provides
enough to consider.
1. Regarding the meeting, Kerie, I
hear what you are saying but I strongly request that you consider my
suggestion. I don't know the numbers of members but I'm sure that if you
review the membership, you will note that there are a large contingent of
people who have or do not attend regularly, on the basis that they feel the
effort involved in making the meeting i.e. trains, taxis a few hours in
Dublin would be too great an effort. This is no reflection on you or any
committee members just that they have no aspirations to be on committees but
would be willing to work with the committee on projects on an email
basis.I'd paraphrase this in saying that varying levels of vision and
mobility either enhance or hinder individuals - People please don't be
insulted as this is an observation.
Response:
I would agree that there is a large
number of members that do not attend meetings or events but I am not
convinced you have any basis for the reason because it isnot purely to do
with just the EGM/AGM type meetings it extends to involvement or attendance
to events being run. The lack of this attendance and interest is why Kerie
put that message out originally asking for ideas of what the membership
wants so that perhaps the committee could better serve its members with
events or such like in other areas of the country as well as just Dublin.
So if your arguement was correct then there would have been more response to
the original request with suggestions to host things in other areas etc. I
myself am in Mayo and do find that journey myself inconvenient for the
general reason that everything, not only VICS events, are centred and held
in Dublin as if that was the centre of the universe, but if there is
something I really wish to attend or in this case something that is very
important to me then I will make that extra effort.
2. I mentioned the website, and
Cearbhall
explained that it was an experiment
by a sub committee. O.K. but isn't it a basic task of the committee to
keep such tasks updated as part of housekeeping if the capability is
available to it?
Response:
There has been several discussion on
this and how to progress with this especially as the
maintainance/development side of it, I believe, is quite complicated
involving some knowledge of the paticlular web development tool, so with
that in mind it depends on how skilled the committee or the person assigned
that task is for implementing features and facilities on the site. Perhaps
as was previously mentioned the site should just purely be a basic one
giving just the sufficient information on the society and how to contact
them etc. but just to clarify it has been discussed.
3. As a matter of point to the
mailing list, Most queries are answered by other members but I did notice a
request for information on windows 8 and menus on webpages recently which
didn't receiveany response. I was tempted to reply giving my thoughts which
were unexperienced due to only experiencing win 8 by chance and being an
X.P. user myself.Shouldn't there be some mechanism by which the knowledgable
members of the committee would intervene and provide info.
Response:
You are making assumptions that all
members on the committee have all the knowledge on all topics which is not
necessarily true and also an unfair responsibility to place on them to be
experts in all areas of IT and computing. The society is made up of
computing professionals and general users that would not have certain
knowledge and so it is therefore fair to say that if the society is made up
in this way that the committee is equally made up in that way. I am not
saying that there wasn't anyone on the list who could have provided the
answer but perhaps there wasn't either, however it again just shows the lack
of responses and interest in certain aspects of the group if there was the
people out there.
4. You stated that you emailed the
list at the beginning of the year for ideas but nothing came out of it.
Shouldn't there be some kind of consensis among the committee at the
beginning of the year on areas to be covered or projects to develop during
the year. There is a diverse range of abilities among the list members whom
I'm sure would work with committee inspired projects, if they were
approached.
Response:
You are correct in your assumption
of the discussion at the beginning of a committee's year that there are
topics and areas that might be looked at but as was stated with the meetings
and events respons it is not easy to lead an organisation unless you know
what is of interest to it's members because if a committee just goes off and
does what it thinks is worth doing then if not wanted by the membership can
create the impression that the committee don't care about what the other
members want from the society. So it is fine the committee having ideas and
be involved in ongoing projects but to have input from the membership and
involvement at, as already mentioned, events and meetings would mean that
the committee would at least field they have something to lead and that they
aren't just flogging a dead horse.
5. Is the basis of the computer
society eroded so much that it is easier to such the web for answers than to
develop what we have. Simple answer Yes, so what is the point, such an
attitude
could have been taken years ago.
success comes with effort.
Response:
Yes, "success comes with effort" but
it is not that the effort hasn't been put in to it over the past years but
again you can only work with what you have and if that isn't anything or
much then it is hard to progress and become successful. There are loads of
places to get answers on the web now even in the relm of assistive tech but
again the committee can only fill a need if they no what that need is, so if
the society is to continue then the committee needs to no what is needed by
the members. Another point to a successful organisation is that it needs to
be able to evolve and change but again this is not possible unless needs of
the group are identified and the way things are perhaps run are known such
as if VICS runs just training events or do they become more social, or a mix
of the two and how that is all structured in conjunction to the actual needs
of the group too.
6. Observing the responses to date,
I believe that the numbers involved have reduced in the society. A
committee has to consider where to canvas for new sources of members, did
the committee consider this point?
Response:
The short and straightforward answer
to this is Yes. The trend that these questions are following are a lot of
assumptions and as someone who hasn't been involved in the committee and
meetings you have no idea of what has or hasn't been discussed and it is
wrong and unfair of you to make assumptions and judgements of such a type.
Perhaps if you stood for the committee and experienced the situation from
that side then you may have a better appreciation of how things are. As
they say if you want to understand someone then walk a mile in their shoes.
7. What relationships or
association has the society built up with other groups, industry user groups
ovr the years and what is the position presently.
Response:
I am unsure of all the
contacts/connection built up so can't give you a great answer to this, as I
am only an ordinary committee member, but I can tell you that connection
with the British Computer Association of the Blind (BCAB) has been
established and I mention this particular organisation as they are the
closest group to what we would be. Despite this connection we have to take
in to consideration that they are a UK group and so any dealings with them
would not make a lot of difference to our everyday running and development.
8. In my reading of the
constitution, you have to contact members at least 3 weeks previous to any
meeting. Besides putting a notice on the mailing list, Did the committee or
you email all the members of vicsireland individually to ensure that they
are aware of the meeting?
Response:
I can not answer for the Membership
Secretary or the Chair but I am sure that they will have done what they
could to have provided notification to the members. It was in good time and
as you are such an advocate of the list and how much people use or rely on
it then if the list was the only place this was announced then this should
have been adequate for the majority.
9. I've read the constitution and
it covers a great deal. My original observation in that I believe that a
committee should be the driving force rather than leaving it to the general
membership is endorsed by the wording of the constitution:
2 AIMS & OBJECTIVES
list of 6 items
1. To meet the needs of visually
impaired
people in the area of general
computer access.
2. To provide support to those who
are new to
computers.
3. To encourage employers to hire
visually
impaired employees enabled by new
technology.
4. To promote and where possible,
assist in the
development of adaptive technology,
and to encourage developers of new software
and hardware to ensure
accessibility.
5. To act in an advisory capacity
to bodies
seeking to provide access to
electronic data.
6. To advise on, and promote the
development of
fully accessible websites.
There is plenty of topics that would
keep any committee busy. Can you provide any updates on recent
developments under any of the headings?
Response:
We again come back to the same point
that yes a committee is there to lead but it can only do so by knowing what
is needed. At no stage has it been implied that the running of the society
is going to be left to the members but the committee needs to be able to run
something. In relation to the points/avenues that could be looked at, as
you suggest, above you have to remember that some of these are now
undertaken by other organisations such as NCBI and other bodies. I am not
going to address each point individually as this reply is turning in to a
novel already, but the committee again can look at some of these areas that
may not be addressed by other organisations/groups but they will need to
know if that is what the membership want from the society because it could
drastically change the group for some people resulting in a larger
membership fall out, if what you suggested earlier is correct that there
seems to be a drop in membership.
9. The constitution states that: 2.
Nominations may be made for persons not
present at the meeting, on receipt
of written approval from the nominee. This in itself opens the door to
having a meeting on line as if a person is nominated and accepted while not
being there, they are being confirmed as part of the working group i.e.
committee
Response:
This does not give justification for
an online or Email meeting as it depends on one's interpretation. I would
say that this is an indication that the committee is able to receive
proposals with nominations/seconders and the same for people looking to
stand for the committee by Email if they can't attend, and they can all be
taken in to account that day and voted on by the attendies on the day but it
doesn't mean it can all happen online. If it was a commercial organisation
with shareholders then when they hold thir AGM you would recieve an
invitation to the meeting and if you couldn't attend then you would have a
nominee form with the people standing or you can provide authorization of
vote to the Chair to decide on your behalf as a proxy vote. So again there
is no reason why a physical meeting is out of the question.
10. Cearbhall suggest a project in
developing the open source software i.e. programs like Open office, mozilla,
linox, N.V.D.A. This is a very interesting idea. personally I wouldn't be
great with the ligistics involved, we could develop such a package on the
basis that it could be applied to the lower cost tablets for assisting
individuals getting accustomed to technology.
Response:
As has been expressed before by
several people this is a good and constructive suggestion which if the
society continues could be looked in to further as an option.
11. What would people's attitude be
to paid advertising on the website to create a finance stream. The funds
created could be used to finance accessibility awards for design
competitions for accessible software or rewarding companies who make their
websites accessible. School competitions to develop accessible apps for USE
BY BLIND PEOPLE OR BLIND USERS TO DEVELOP APPS. This thought comes from the
recent email from Ronan
Response:
Some good ideas here too and in the
long list of points/comments raised until now probably some of the most
constructive suggestions for input to how we as a organisation can survive
and change/develop. If VICS does continue then I am sure there are some
very good ideas here, however the only thing I would say about the web ads
idea is that it will require someone who has web analytic skills and
optimisation skills too so this maybe or may not be possible depending on
the skill set of the group/committee.
12. So, If I nominate and get a
seconder for someone who might not be there on the day Will it be accepted?
Response:
As a short and my own answer to
this, not representative of the whole committee, would be yes I am sure it
would be.
13. Damien suggested to Kerie that
he would help with an agendafor the meetingAlas Kerie says that there is
only 1 item to be discussed: there are twelve items above to be considered.
Response:
You have made 12 items however as
you can see throughout these there is a common theme of input and
involvement by the membership for the current or future committees to know
the needs and wants of the membership. If we use a computing analogy then
if you input nothing to a computer don't expect anything to be output, and
if you provide limit input then it will provide you with a limit result. I
have been both a software designer and tester and in both situations if you
don't have enough input then the results are limitted. Without all
specifications and requirements from the customer the developer doesn't know
what to produce, and won't produce the correct application for the client.
If you are only told to test for certain things then you will miss many
other things and the results will not be complete. So although the
committee is to run the organisation it needs to know what members want from
them and how/what they want from the organisation. Kerie is still correct
that there is one main topic to discuss and that is the future of VICS but
from this discussion, using some of the constructive input given, will
determine this future and development of the group.
14. Martin pointed out to me that
in the event of voting a separate email would have to be used for all the
votes. I think this would be fine, once the motion is in the header people
can reply to the motion with yes or no. Alternatively, an email containing
the motions can be forwarded to the individuals on the list and they can put
their preferred option in quotes beside it.
Response:
I can not answer for the Chair or
the rest of the committee on this point but if proposals/motions are raised
and voted on by members who can't attend via Email then I'm sure this will
be fine, but again it is no excuse for people not to attend the physical
meeting if at all possible otherwise this is just a cope out for any proper
involvement. This method could be used but it doesn't mean that the
committee or the specific committee member assigned to this task can be
swamped by everyone just because they don't want to attend because if it
turns out to be that the committee are the only ones to make the physical
meeting then it will also still give the impression that noone is
interested/borthered enough about VICS to make the effort.
This has been a long reply providing
my view on things and not necessarily the view of the whole committee but I
hope that I have been able to answer some of the points raised here and that
I have given a reasonable representation for the committee. I would however
thank you for being thorough in this Email, despite it's length, as it has
at least shown some passion of one member of VICS in what they want from the
organisation and it's future. It is just a shame that it hasn't sparked any
more interest from other members of VICS to contribute to this
thread/discussion, and that being said then this poses the question whether
an online voting/meeting would have worked anyway due to the lack of
responses.
Kind regards
Martin
From:
vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of GERARD SHANAHAN
Sent: 06 April 2014 20:23
To: vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [vicsireland] debate on
vics and E.G.M
Hi All,
Back again to try and whet your
appetites for a debate on the topics of having the meeting online and the
future of vicsireland website and list.
1. Regarding the meeting, Kerie, I
hear what you are saying but I strongly request that you consider my
suggestion. I don't know the numbers of members but I'm sure that if you
review the membership, you will note that there are a large contingent of
people who have or do not attend regularly, on the basis that they feel the
effort involved in making the meeting i.e. trains, taxis a few hours in
Dublin would be too great an effort. This is no reflection on you or any
committee members just that they have no aspirations to be on committees but
would be willing to work with the committee on projects on an email
basis.I'd paraphrase this in saying that varying levels of vision and
mobility either enhance or hinder individuals - People please don't be
insulted as this is an observation.
2. I mentioned the website, and
Cearbhall
explained that it was an experiment
by a sub committee. O.K. but isn't it a basic task of the committee to
keep such tasks updated as part of housekeeping if the capability is
available to it?
3. As a matter of point to the
mailing list, Most queries are answered by other members but I did notice a
request for information on windows 8 and menus on webpages recently which
didn't receiveany response. I was tempted to reply giving my thoughts which
were unexperienced due to only experiencing win 8 by chance and being an
X.P. user myself.Shouldn't there be some mechanism by which the knowledgable
members of the committee would intervene and provide info.
4. You stated that you emailed the
list at the beginning of the year for ideas but nothing came out of it.
Shouldn't there be some kind of consensis among the committee at the
beginning of the year on areas to be covered or projects to develop during
the year. There is a diverse range of abilities among the list members whom
I'm sure would work with committee inspired projects, if they were
approached.
5. Is the basis of the computer
society eroded so much that it is easier to such the web for answers than to
develop what we have. Simple answer Yes, so what is the point, such an
attitude
could have been taken years ago.
success comes with effort.
6. Observing the responses to date,
I believe that the numbers involved have reduced in the society. A
committee has to consider where to canvas for new sources of members, did
the committee consider this point?
7. What relationships or
association has the society built up with other groups, industry user groups
ovr the years and what is the position presently.
8. In my reading of the
constitution, you have to contact members at least 3 weeks previous to any
meeting. Besides putting a notice on the mailing list, Did the committee or
you email all the members of vicsireland individually to ensure that they
are aware of the meeting?
9. I've read the constitution and
it covers a great deal. My original observation in that I believe that a
committee should be the driving force rather than leaving it to the general
membership is endorsed by the wording of the constitution:
2 AIMS & OBJECTIVES
list of 6 items
1. To meet the needs of visually
impaired
people in the area of general
computer access.
2. To provide support to those who
are new to
computers.
3. To encourage employers to hire
visually
impaired employees enabled by new
technology.
4. To promote and where possible,
assist in the
development of adaptive technology,
and to encourage developers of new software
and hardware to ensure
accessibility.
5. To act in an advisory capacity
to bodies
seeking to provide access to
electronic data.
6. To advise on, and promote the
development of
fully accessible websites.
There is plenty of topics that would
keep any committee busy. Can you provide any updates on recent
developments under any of the headings?
9. The constitution states that: 2.
Nominations may be made for persons not
present at the meeting, on receipt
of written approval from the nominee. This in itself opens the door to
having a meeting on line as if a person is nominated and accepted while not
being there, they are being confirmed as part of the working group i.e.
committee
10. Cearbhall suggest a project in
developing the open source software i.e. programs like Open office, mozilla,
linox, N.V.D.A. This is a very interesting idea. personally I wouldn't be
great with the ligistics involved, we could develop such a package on the
basis that it could be applied to the lower cost tablets for assisting
individuals getting accustomed to technology.
11. What would people's attitude be
to paid advertising on the website to create a finance stream. The funds
created could be used to finance accessibility awards for design
competitions for accessible software or rewarding companies who make their
websites accessible. School competitions to develop accessible apps for USE
BY BLIND PEOPLE OR BLIND USERS TO DEVELOP APPS. This thought comes from the
recent email from Ronan
12. So, If I nominate and get a
seconder for someone who might not be there on the day Will it be accepted?
13. Damien suggested to Kerie that
he would help with an agendafor the meetingAlas Kerie says that there is
only 1 item to be discussed: there are twelve items above to be considered.
14. Martin pointed out to me that
in the event of voting a separate email would have to be used for all the
votes. I think this would be fine, once the motion is in the header people
can reply to the motion with yes or no. Alternatively, an email containing
the motions can be forwarded to the individuals on the list and they can put
their preferred option in quotes beside it.
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Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 3722/6825 - Release Date: 04/10/14
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 3722/6825 - Release Date: 04/10/14
--
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SPAMfighter has removed 608 of my spam emails to date.
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