[vicsireland] Re: debate on vics and E.G.M
- From: "Martin Fleming" <martinfleming01@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 09:48:58 +0100
Hi Gerry,
I would be in support of Kerie just like Cearbhall especially in view of the
issue of a physical meeting. I have provided responses to your questions
shown at the end of each point but please remember that these are my views
and thoughts and not necessarily the views of others on the committee. I
don't know if anyone else will provide answers to these points and the
lengthy Email but I hope this provides enough to consider.
1. Regarding the meeting, Kerie, I hear what you are saying but I strongly
request that you consider my suggestion. I don't know the numbers of
members but I'm sure that if you review the membership, you will note that
there are a large contingent of people who have or do not attend regularly,
on the basis that they feel the effort involved in making the meeting i.e.
trains, taxis a few hours in Dublin would be too great an effort. This is
no reflection on you or any committee members just that they have no
aspirations to be on committees but would be willing to work with the
committee on projects on an email basis.I'd paraphrase this in saying that
varying levels of vision and mobility either enhance or hinder individuals -
People please don't be insulted as this is an observation.
Response:
I would agree that there is a large number of members that do not attend
meetings or events but I am not convinced you have any basis for the reason
because it isnot purely to do with just the EGM/AGM type meetings it extends
to involvement or attendance to events being run. The lack of this
attendance and interest is why Kerie put that message out originally asking
for ideas of what the membership wants so that perhaps the committee could
better serve its members with events or such like in other areas of the
country as well as just Dublin. So if your arguement was correct then there
would have been more response to the original request with suggestions to
host things in other areas etc. I myself am in Mayo and do find that
journey myself inconvenient for the general reason that everything, not only
VICS events, are centred and held in Dublin as if that was the centre of the
universe, but if there is something I really wish to attend or in this case
something that is very important to me then I will make that extra effort.
2. I mentioned the website, and Cearbhall
explained that it was an experiment by a sub committee. O.K. but isn't it
a basic task of the committee to keep such tasks updated as part of
housekeeping if the capability is available to it?
Response:
There has been several discussion on this and how to progress with this
especially as the maintainance/development side of it, I believe, is quite
complicated involving some knowledge of the paticlular web development tool,
so with that in mind it depends on how skilled the committee or the person
assigned that task is for implementing features and facilities on the site.
Perhaps as was previously mentioned the site should just purely be a basic
one giving just the sufficient information on the society and how to contact
them etc. but just to clarify it has been discussed.
3. As a matter of point to the mailing list, Most queries are answered by
other members but I did notice a request for information on windows 8 and
menus on webpages recently which didn't receiveany response. I was tempted
to reply giving my thoughts which were unexperienced due to only
experiencing win 8 by chance and being an X.P. user myself.Shouldn't there
be some mechanism by which the knowledgable members of the committee would
intervene and provide info.
Response:
You are making assumptions that all members on the committee have all the
knowledge on all topics which is not necessarily true and also an unfair
responsibility to place on them to be experts in all areas of IT and
computing. The society is made up of computing professionals and general
users that would not have certain knowledge and so it is therefore fair to
say that if the society is made up in this way that the committee is equally
made up in that way. I am not saying that there wasn't anyone on the list
who could have provided the answer but perhaps there wasn't either, however
it again just shows the lack of responses and interest in certain aspects of
the group if there was the people out there.
4. You stated that you emailed the list at the beginning of the year for
ideas but nothing came out of it. Shouldn't there be some kind of consensis
among the committee at the beginning of the year on areas to be covered or
projects to develop during the year. There is a diverse range of abilities
among the list members whom I'm sure would work with committee inspired
projects, if they were approached.
Response:
You are correct in your assumption of the discussion at the beginning of a
committee's year that there are topics and areas that might be looked at but
as was stated with the meetings and events respons it is not easy to lead an
organisation unless you know what is of interest to it's members because if
a committee just goes off and does what it thinks is worth doing then if not
wanted by the membership can create the impression that the committee don't
care about what the other members want from the society. So it is fine the
committee having ideas and be involved in ongoing projects but to have input
from the membership and involvement at, as already mentioned, events and
meetings would mean that the committee would at least field they have
something to lead and that they aren't just flogging a dead horse.
5. Is the basis of the computer society eroded so much that it is easier to
such the web for answers than to develop what we have. Simple answer Yes,
so what is the point, such an attitude
could have been taken years ago. success comes with effort.
Response:
Yes, "success comes with effort" but it is not that the effort hasn't been
put in to it over the past years but again you can only work with what you
have and if that isn't anything or much then it is hard to progress and
become successful. There are loads of places to get answers on the web now
even in the relm of assistive tech but again the committee can only fill a
need if they no what that need is, so if the society is to continue then the
committee needs to no what is needed by the members. Another point to a
successful organisation is that it needs to be able to evolve and change but
again this is not possible unless needs of the group are identified and the
way things are perhaps run are known such as if VICS runs just training
events or do they become more social, or a mix of the two and how that is
all structured in conjunction to the actual needs of the group too.
6. Observing the responses to date, I believe that the numbers involved
have reduced in the society. A committee has to consider where to canvas
for new sources of members, did the committee consider this point?
Response:
The short and straightforward answer to this is Yes. The trend that these
questions are following are a lot of assumptions and as someone who hasn't
been involved in the committee and meetings you have no idea of what has or
hasn't been discussed and it is wrong and unfair of you to make assumptions
and judgements of such a type. Perhaps if you stood for the committee and
experienced the situation from that side then you may have a better
appreciation of how things are. As they say if you want to understand
someone then walk a mile in their shoes.
7. What relationships or association has the society built up with other
groups, industry user groups ovr the years and what is the position
presently.
Response:
I am unsure of all the contacts/connection built up so can't give you a
great answer to this, as I am only an ordinary committee member, but I can
tell you that connection with the British Computer Association of the Blind
(BCAB) has been established and I mention this particular organisation as
they are the closest group to what we would be. Despite this connection we
have to take in to consideration that they are a UK group and so any
dealings with them would not make a lot of difference to our everyday
running and development.
8. In my reading of the constitution, you have to contact members at least 3
weeks previous to any meeting. Besides putting a notice on the mailing
list, Did the committee or you email all the members of vicsireland
individually to ensure that they are aware of the meeting?
Response:
I can not answer for the Membership Secretary or the Chair but I am sure
that they will have done what they could to have provided notification to
the members. It was in good time and as you are such an advocate of the
list and how much people use or rely on it then if the list was the only
place this was announced then this should have been adequate for the
majority.
9. I've read the constitution and it covers a great deal. My original
observation in that I believe that a committee should be the driving force
rather than leaving it to the general membership is endorsed by the wording
of the constitution:
2 AIMS & OBJECTIVES
list of 6 items
1. To meet the needs of visually impaired
people in the area of general computer access.
2. To provide support to those who are new to
computers.
3. To encourage employers to hire visually
impaired employees enabled by new technology.
4. To promote and where possible, assist in the
development of adaptive technology, and to encourage developers of new
software
and hardware to ensure accessibility.
5. To act in an advisory capacity to bodies
seeking to provide access to electronic data.
6. To advise on, and promote the development of
fully accessible websites.
There is plenty of topics that would keep any committee busy. Can you
provide any updates on recent developments under any of the headings?
Response:
We again come back to the same point that yes a committee is there to lead
but it can only do so by knowing what is needed. At no stage has it been
implied that the running of the society is going to be left to the members
but the committee needs to be able to run something. In relation to the
points/avenues that could be looked at, as you suggest, above you have to
remember that some of these are now undertaken by other organisations such
as NCBI and other bodies. I am not going to address each point individually
as this reply is turning in to a novel already, but the committee again can
look at some of these areas that may not be addressed by other
organisations/groups but they will need to know if that is what the
membership want from the society because it could drastically change the
group for some people resulting in a larger membership fall out, if what you
suggested earlier is correct that there seems to be a drop in membership.
9. The constitution states that: 2. Nominations may be made for persons
not
present at the meeting, on receipt of written approval from the nominee.
This in itself opens the door to having a meeting on line as if a person is
nominated and accepted while not being there, they are being confirmed as
part of the working group i.e. committee
Response:
This does not give justification for an online or Email meeting as it
depends on one's interpretation. I would say that this is an indication
that the committee is able to receive proposals with nominations/seconders
and the same for people looking to stand for the committee by Email if they
can't attend, and they can all be taken in to account that day and voted on
by the attendies on the day but it doesn't mean it can all happen online.
If it was a commercial organisation with shareholders then when they hold
thir AGM you would recieve an invitation to the meeting and if you couldn't
attend then you would have a nominee form with the people standing or you
can provide authorization of vote to the Chair to decide on your behalf as a
proxy vote. So again there is no reason why a physical meeting is out of
the question.
10. Cearbhall suggest a project in developing the open source software
i.e. programs like Open office, mozilla, linox, N.V.D.A. This is a very
interesting idea. personally I wouldn't be great with the ligistics
involved, we could develop such a package on the basis that it could be
applied to the lower cost tablets for assisting individuals getting
accustomed to technology.
Response:
As has been expressed before by several people this is a good and
constructive suggestion which if the society continues could be looked in to
further as an option.
11. What would people's attitude be to paid advertising on the website to
create a finance stream. The funds created could be used to finance
accessibility awards for design competitions for accessible software or
rewarding companies who make their websites accessible. School competitions
to develop accessible apps for USE BY BLIND PEOPLE OR BLIND USERS TO DEVELOP
APPS. This thought comes from the recent email from Ronan
Response:
Some good ideas here too and in the long list of points/comments raised
until now probably some of the most constructive suggestions for input to
how we as a organisation can survive and change/develop. If VICS does
continue then I am sure there are some very good ideas here, however the
only thing I would say about the web ads idea is that it will require
someone who has web analytic skills and optimisation skills too so this
maybe or may not be possible depending on the skill set of the
group/committee.
12. So, If I nominate and get a seconder for someone who might not be there
on the day Will it be accepted?
Response:
As a short and my own answer to this, not representative of the whole
committee, would be yes I am sure it would be.
13. Damien suggested to Kerie that he would help with an agendafor the
meetingAlas Kerie says that there is only 1 item to be discussed: there are
twelve items above to be considered.
Response:
You have made 12 items however as you can see throughout these there is a
common theme of input and involvement by the membership for the current or
future committees to know the needs and wants of the membership. If we use
a computing analogy then if you input nothing to a computer don't expect
anything to be output, and if you provide limit input then it will provide
you with a limit result. I have been both a software designer and tester
and in both situations if you don't have enough input then the results are
limitted. Without all specifications and requirements from the customer the
developer doesn't know what to produce, and won't produce the correct
application for the client. If you are only told to test for certain things
then you will miss many other things and the results will not be complete.
So although the committee is to run the organisation it needs to know what
members want from them and how/what they want from the organisation. Kerie
is still correct that there is one main topic to discuss and that is the
future of VICS but from this discussion, using some of the constructive
input given, will determine this future and development of the group.
14. Martin pointed out to me that in the event of voting a separate email
would have to be used for all the votes. I think this would be fine, once
the motion is in the header people can reply to the motion with yes or no.
Alternatively, an email containing the motions can be forwarded to the
individuals on the list and they can put their preferred option in quotes
beside it.
Response:
I can not answer for the Chair or the rest of the committee on this point
but if proposals/motions are raised and voted on by members who can't attend
via Email then I'm sure this will be fine, but again it is no excuse for
people not to attend the physical meeting if at all possible otherwise this
is just a cope out for any proper involvement. This method could be used
but it doesn't mean that the committee or the specific committee member
assigned to this task can be swamped by everyone just because they don't
want to attend because if it turns out to be that the committee are the only
ones to make the physical meeting then it will also still give the
impression that noone is interested/borthered enough about VICS to make the
effort.
This has been a long reply providing my view on things and not necessarily
the view of the whole committee but I hope that I have been able to answer
some of the points raised here and that I have given a reasonable
representation for the committee. I would however thank you for being
thorough in this Email, despite it's length, as it has at least shown some
passion of one member of VICS in what they want from the organisation and
it's future. It is just a shame that it hasn't sparked any more interest
from other members of VICS to contribute to this thread/discussion, and that
being said then this poses the question whether an online voting/meeting
would have worked anyway due to the lack of responses.
Kind regards
Martin
From: vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:vicsireland-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of GERARD SHANAHAN
Sent: 06 April 2014 20:23
To: vicsireland@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [vicsireland] debate on vics and E.G.M
Hi All,
Back again to try and whet your appetites for a debate on the topics of
having the meeting online and the future of vicsireland website and list.
1. Regarding the meeting, Kerie, I hear what you are saying but I strongly
request that you consider my suggestion. I don't know the numbers of
members but I'm sure that if you review the membership, you will note that
there are a large contingent of people who have or do not attend regularly,
on the basis that they feel the effort involved in making the meeting i.e.
trains, taxis a few hours in Dublin would be too great an effort. This is
no reflection on you or any committee members just that they have no
aspirations to be on committees but would be willing to work with the
committee on projects on an email basis.I'd paraphrase this in saying that
varying levels of vision and mobility either enhance or hinder individuals -
People please don't be insulted as this is an observation.
2. I mentioned the website, and Cearbhall
explained that it was an experiment by a sub committee. O.K. but isn't it
a basic task of the committee to keep such tasks updated as part of
housekeeping if the capability is available to it?
3. As a matter of point to the mailing list, Most queries are answered by
other members but I did notice a request for information on windows 8 and
menus on webpages recently which didn't receiveany response. I was tempted
to reply giving my thoughts which were unexperienced due to only
experiencing win 8 by chance and being an X.P. user myself.Shouldn't there
be some mechanism by which the knowledgable members of the committee would
intervene and provide info.
4. You stated that you emailed the list at the beginning of the year for
ideas but nothing came out of it. Shouldn't there be some kind of consensis
among the committee at the beginning of the year on areas to be covered or
projects to develop during the year. There is a diverse range of abilities
among the list members whom I'm sure would work with committee inspired
projects, if they were approached.
5. Is the basis of the computer society eroded so much that it is easier to
such the web for answers than to develop what we have. Simple answer Yes,
so what is the point, such an attitude
could have been taken years ago. success comes with effort.
6. Observing the responses to date, I believe that the numbers involved
have reduced in the society. A committee has to consider where to canvas
for new sources of members, did the committee consider this point?
7. What relationships or association has the society built up with other
groups, industry user groups ovr the years and what is the position
presently.
8. In my reading of the constitution, you have to contact members at least 3
weeks previous to any meeting. Besides putting a notice on the mailing
list, Did the committee or you email all the members of vicsireland
individually to ensure that they are aware of the meeting?
9. I've read the constitution and it covers a great deal. My original
observation in that I believe that a committee should be the driving force
rather than leaving it to the general membership is endorsed by the wording
of the constitution:
2 AIMS & OBJECTIVES
list of 6 items
1. To meet the needs of visually impaired
people in the area of general computer access.
2. To provide support to those who are new to
computers.
3. To encourage employers to hire visually
impaired employees enabled by new technology.
4. To promote and where possible, assist in the
development of adaptive technology, and to encourage developers of new
software
and hardware to ensure accessibility.
5. To act in an advisory capacity to bodies
seeking to provide access to electronic data.
6. To advise on, and promote the development of
fully accessible websites.
There is plenty of topics that would keep any committee busy. Can you
provide any updates on recent developments under any of the headings?
9. The constitution states that: 2. Nominations may be made for persons
not
present at the meeting, on receipt of written approval from the nominee.
This in itself opens the door to having a meeting on line as if a person is
nominated and accepted while not being there, they are being confirmed as
part of the working group i.e. committee
10. Cearbhall suggest a project in developing the open source software
i.e. programs like Open office, mozilla, linox, N.V.D.A. This is a very
interesting idea. personally I wouldn't be great with the ligistics
involved, we could develop such a package on the basis that it could be
applied to the lower cost tablets for assisting individuals getting
accustomed to technology.
11. What would people's attitude be to paid advertising on the website to
create a finance stream. The funds created could be used to finance
accessibility awards for design competitions for accessible software or
rewarding companies who make their websites accessible. School competitions
to develop accessible apps for USE BY BLIND PEOPLE OR BLIND USERS TO DEVELOP
APPS. This thought comes from the recent email from Ronan
12. So, If I nominate and get a seconder for someone who might not be there
on the day Will it be accepted?
13. Damien suggested to Kerie that he would help with an agendafor the
meetingAlas Kerie says that there is only 1 item to be discussed: there are
twelve items above to be considered.
14. Martin pointed out to me that in the event of voting a separate email
would have to be used for all the votes. I think this would be fine, once
the motion is in the header people can reply to the motion with yes or no.
Alternatively, an email containing the motions can be forwarded to the
individuals on the list and they can put their preferred option in quotes
beside it.
_____
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